[HeatFan12]

Looking good RustA. Cheers!

I also purchased my O2 from Tyler (Mayflower). He's listed on JDS as a US distributor. That's how I found Mayflower. Great service.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[miceblue]

I was thinking of getting this amp, but I was wondering if there will be any more noticeable changes with my ATH-M50s than say my motherboards integrated sound? I will purchasing the V moda M100s soon as well and I just wanted my audio to be more refined and having a better sound stage, etc. 

There's a discussion about this elsewhere. Standard, cheap, audio chipsets are so well implemented these days that there is a good possibility that you are already getting hifi out of it and the ODAC won't make any difference. It depends on the manufacturer. My 5 year old laptop has an output impedance of .5 and for the life of me I can't tell the difference between it and the O2/ODAC. A friends computer is the same. Both are Dells.

Perversely, Macs usually have high output impedance which means that while the chipset may be hifi, it will interact with low impedance headphones in negative ways. Older Ipods also have this issue, and the Iphone 5 (but the 3gs and 4 are fine).

I also suspect that where manufacturers have gone for high end chipsets (like Wolfson) then they become hostage to implementation issues and so you get worse audio. A good example of that would be the dire Samsung Galaxy II and III (and maybe I). It's purely about marketing because standard, off-the-shelf chipsets are likely already hifi.

Yeah about the Macs thing. My 6-year old Dell Vostro sounds cleaner than my 4-year old MacBook. Odd.

 

[chrislangley4253]

Quote:

I was thinking of getting this amp, but I was wondering if there will be any more noticeable changes with my ATH-M50s than say my motherboards integrated sound? I will purchasing the V moda M100s soon as well and I just wanted my audio to be more refined and having a better sound stage, etc. 

 
It will only improve if there is something inherently wrong with your mobo's sound. Is it noisey? Does it feel like it's lacking anything? If not, It's prolly just fine. The only thing I gained moving off of my mobo was a drop in noise and I feel like I gained a little imaging or soundstage somehow, maybe my mobo rolls  the highs a tad.
 
Quote:

 
I also do not hear it... It's not that all the O2 amps are faulty or anything like that. As I suggested, check the pot... Or leave it as it is since there are no practical impacts.

 
It is certainly the pot, I just came her to try to get the problem recognized. I've had the pots do this to me 3 times now. It's a little annoying, I don't have the hot air equipment to replace it myself, or I certainly would.. And with something not made by alps, for sure.

 

[Satellite_6]

Quote:

 
You can from Mayflower, scroll to the bottom... http://www.mayflowerelectronics.com/products.html
 
Not sure about JDS Labs, maybe you could ask them if they can do it for you... However, as I said, Mayflower cooperates with them, they are even supplied with ODAC boards from them as far as I know. The good thing on Mayflower is that you can get a lot of upgrades if you ask for them. That's what I like.

Ah that's pretty sweet then. I wish I knew about it before but oh well. 

 

[cel4145]

An off-the-shelf implementation is already implemented. So I think you can generalise.

Sure, if there is no such thing as an off-the-shelf implementation, then you can't. In the meantime I have tested both realteks and sigmatels and I cannot tell any difference between them and my ODAC except for a tiny bit of noise.

You think. But you do not know.

I don't doubt the possibility that some implementations of Realtek audio work very well--depending, too, on the rest of the hardware in the laptop. But that's a belief of mine, not a fact. And I would be careful to state it as such. The problem is your faulty logic that, based on anecdotal evidence, you can generalize that Realtek is great across the board. Your listening bias could make them sound the same to you, even though not, just as much as someone else's listening bias could make them feel it's different, when they are sonically the same. Then, have you done a representative sample of laptops currently in production?

 

[autoteleology]

I'm thinking about maybe having a trade for my custom O2 / ODAC for a Magni and a Modi (with cables and a bit of cash).
 
I'm looking for more power and a more convenient package, and I don't mind terribly a slight (but only slight) drop in SQ.
 
Would it be worth it to trade?

 

[RustA]

Quote:

I'm thinking about maybe having a trade for my custom O2 / ODAC for a Magni and a Modi (with cables and a bit of cash).
 
I'm looking for more power and a more convenient package, and I don't mind terribly a slight (but only slight) drop in SQ.
 
Would it be worth it to trade?

 
I say "why not"? You could always switch back then since it's all relatively cheap, you know...
 
You could have a look at the new Asgard 2 as well.

 

[autoteleology]

I say "why not"? You could always switch back then since it's all relatively cheap, you know...

 
Well, not quite. While I had my ODAC custom-built by Audio Poutine, my O2 is one of a kind, as far as I know.
 

 
If I don't like the M&M, it's almost impossible for me to switch back, and if I could, it would at the very least be very time consuming.

 

[RustA]

Quote:

 
Well, not quite. While I had my ODAC custom-built by Audio Poutine, my O2 is one of a kind, as far as I know.
 

 
Then buy Magni+Modi, compare and see for yourself... But, to be honest, I would rather keep ODAC and search for more suitable amplifier only (to provide you with desirable influence on sound). ODAC is pretty good (there is far more work behind it than using a certain chip as some people here tends to think). You are not going to experience better performance with neither Modi, nor Bifrost. I've even read an opinion that ODAC is very similar in performance to Gungnir as well (outcome of a listening test).
 
O2 is equally great but I understand that some want the sound to be a bit influenced by amplifier. What exactly do you want to achieve, by the way? "More power" is a very general statement...

 

[chrislangley4253]

What's special about your O2?

 

[MrMateoHead]

Quote:

 
It will only improve if there is something inherently wrong with your mobo's sound. Is it noisey? Does it feel like it's lacking anything? If not, It's prolly just fine. The only thing I gained moving off of my mobo was a drop in noise and I feel like I gained a little imaging or soundstage somehow, maybe my mobo rolls  the highs a tad.
 
 
It is certainly the pot, I just came her to try to get the problem recognized. I've had the pots do this to me 3 times now. It's a little annoying, I don't have the hot air equipment to replace it myself, or I certainly would.. And with something not made by alps, for sure.

Moving off MB sound definitely took me from "noisy - sometimes" to "black, totally black". Makes for a more spacious sound to my ears. The trade-off has been, I also hear any and all artifacts / imperfections / compression in my albums. Some intentional, some as a result of bad recording practices.
 
As for the noise issue, I feel bad for you. Do you do a lot of sine sweeps or something? Because other than the Youtube link, the problem was not replicated by me.

 

[chrislangley4253]

Quote:

Moving off MB sound definitely took me from "noisy - sometimes" to "black, totally black". Makes for a more spacious sound to my ears. The trade-off has been, I also hear any and all artifacts / imperfections / compression in my albums. Some intentional, some as a result of bad recording practices.
 
As for the noise issue, I feel bad for you. Do you do a lot of sine sweeps or something? Because other than the Youtube link, the problem was not replicated by me.

Yeah man, I use sine sweeps to tune headphones I'm modding.

 

[lorriman]

You think. But you do not know.

Sure, which is why I mentioned that.

I don't doubt the possibility that some implementations of Realtek audio work very well--depending, too, on the rest of the hardware in the laptop. But that's a belief of mine, not a fact. And I would be careful to state it as such. The problem is your faulty logic that, based on anecdotal evidence, you can generalize that Realtek is great across the board. Your listening bias could make them sound the same to you, even though not, just as much as someone else's listening bias could make them feel it's different, when they are sonically the same. Then, have you done a representative sample of laptops currently in production?

Despite my not hearing any (significant) difference between my ODAC and my mobo's sound, I would still purchase the ODAC (and even despite not being after accurate audio reproduction), but I'll get to that in a moment. Firstly...

I didn't say I was generalising 'across the board'. I also mentioned that an off-the-shelf implementation is still not a guarantee; noise issues for example, and perhaps also crosstalk, come to think of it, so a reduction in stereo, both of which would be due to a poor 'implantation implementation' - - of what is otherwise already implemented.

My own experience is anecdotal which is why I was careful not to make strong assertions. Nevertheless, sighted bias is generally quoted in terms of expectation bias causing people to hear differences that don't manifest when tested by DBT (double-blind testing), rather than people who are surprised to hear no difference despite expectation bias. So while my experience is anecdotal, it is worth a pinch more than the usual sighted testing that hears vast improvements that almost certainly don't exist at all. Indeed I was disappointed. Not only should I have been subject to expectation bias (and be 'confirming' the improvement over mobo sound) but I wanted to hear a difference.

In any case, if there are such things as off-the-shelf implementations then it's most certainly logical that cheap chipsets may be giving people hifi already, in well made mobos. To my mind, I would be very surprised if there were not such implementations considering the cost savings (assuming that the ODAC designer is right in saying that perfect hifi is already reacheable on the cheap). And in my care to be accurate, I also mentioned that I do not know if there is such a thing as an off-the-shelf implementation.

I think I have been careful enough to qualify my statements and not make over-generalisations. Enough to at least motivate the impartial reader to try before they buy.

For my part, I want the guarantee that the ODAC/O2 gives me of reaching audio perfection, and that any old random mobo chipset cannot give without comprehensive and independently verified specs. For this purpose I also purchased etymotics balanced armatures. So I would still buy the O2/ODAC combo. By doing this I can hear a base-line of purist hifi audio (as in high fidelity, rather than 'extremely expensive esoteric audio technology') and therefore can avoid some part of the the endless chasing after something better/purer that appears to afflict so many, and which is unnecessary if your believe, as I do, that true, objectively measured, hifi has been reached since some time ago and is not expensive. (A reason I would avoid Class-A amps in favour of cheap but well implemented and properly specced Class D amps).

For me, the biggest improvement I have experienced in my journey has been a DSP combo of 'headphone equalisation' using parametric equalizers (see the head-fi thread on that), and the rockbox 'stereo width' feature at 180%. Wow, does a lot of music come alive with that latter. (If anyone tries this, just be sure to enable stereo-width with another setting 'channel-balance -> 'custom'). I think DSP has a serious future in consumer audio. I should perhaps also mention the realisation that as a loud listener, many of the head-fi reviews by ljokerl can result in disappointment as his quiet listener reviews are not a good match. As a rule of thumb, loud listeners require flat headphones to remove honks and spikes that don't trouble quiet listeners. (Worth mentioning that deaf or 2000-4000Hz deficient listeners need mid centric, voice-forward, phones).

Unhappily, in speaker and headphone tech, while etymotics can give audio perfection/nirvana, they don't reach audio paradise in my opinion. And I don't mean the weak bass (which can be equalised in without penalty due to low distortion). My modded Fostex T50rp give a stunning 'texture' to the audio that is highly sensual and very pleasing. I've not found this present in other phones. Indeed, despite the rep of the Senheiser HD-800, I would wish to verify the presence or absence of this attribute before purchase.

Any way, nice to get all that off my chest.

 

[cel4145]

Sure, which is why I mentioned that.
Despite my not hearing any (significant) difference between my ODAC and my mobo's sound, I would still purchase the ODAC (and even despite not being after accurate audio reproduction), but I'll get to that in a moment. Firstly...

I didn't say I was generalising 'across the board'. I also mentioned that an off-the-shelf implementation is still not a guarantee; noise issues for example, and perhaps also crosstalk, come to think of it, so a reduction in stereo, both of which would be due to a poor 'implantation implementation' - - of what is otherwise already implemented.

My own experience is anecdotal which is why I was careful not to make strong assertions. Nevertheless, sighted bias is generally quoted in terms of expectation bias causing people to hear differences that don't manifest when tested by DBT (double-blind testing), rather than people who are surprised to hear no difference despite expectation bias. So while my experience is anecdotal, it is worth a pinch more than the usual sighted testing that hears vast improvements that almost certainly don't exist at all. Indeed I was disappointed. Not only should I have been subject to expectation bias (and be 'confirming' the improvement over mobo sound) but I wanted to hear a difference.

In any case, if there are such things as off-the-shelf implementations then it's most certainly logical that cheap chipsets may be giving people hifi already, in well made mobos. To my mind, I would be very surprised if there were not such implementations considering the cost savings (assuming that the ODAC designer is right in saying that perfect hifi is already reacheable on the cheap). And in my care to be accurate, I also mentioned that I do not know if there is such a thing as an off-the-shelf implementation.

I think I have been careful enough to qualify my statements and not make over-generalisations. Enough to at least motivate the impartial reader to try before they buy.

For my part, I want the guarantee that the ODAC/O2 gives me of reaching audio perfection, and that any old random mobo chipset cannot give without comprehensive and independently verified specs. For this purpose I also purchased etymotics balanced armatures. So I would still buy the O2/ODAC combo. By doing this I can hear a base-line of purist hifi audio (as in high fidelity, rather than 'extremely expensive esoteric audio technology') and therefore can avoid some part of the the endless chasing after something better/purer that appears to afflict so many, and which is unnecessary if your believe, as I do, that true, objectively measured, hifi has been reached since some time ago and is not expensive. (A reason I would avoid Class-A amps in favour of cheap but well implemented and properly specced Class D amps).

For me, the biggest improvement I have experienced in my journey has been a DSP combo of 'headphone equalisation' using parametric equalizers (see the head-fi thread on that), and the rockbox 'stereo width' feature at 180%. Wow, does a lot of music come alive with that latter. (If anyone tries this, just be sure to enable stereo-width with another setting 'channel-balance -> 'custom'). I think DSP has a serious future in consumer audio. I should perhaps also mention the realisation that as a loud listener, many of the head-fi reviews by ljokerl can result in disappointment as his quiet listener reviews are not a good match. As a rule of thumb, loud listeners require flat headphones to remove honks and spikes that don't trouble quiet listeners. (Worth mentioning that deaf or 2000-4000Hz deficient listeners need mid centric, voice-forward, phones).

Unhappily, in speaker and headphone tech, while etymotics can give audio perfection/nirvana, they don't reach audio paradise in my opinion. And I don't mean the weak bass (which can be equalised in without penalty due to low distortion). My modded Fostex T50rp give a stunning 'texture' to the audio that is highly sensual and very pleasing. I've not found this present in other phones. Indeed, despite the rep of the Senheiser HD-800, I would wish to verify the presence or absence of this attribute before purchase.

Any way, nice to get all that off my chest.

You had made this declarative statement,

Standard, cheap, audio chipsets are so well implemented these days that there is a good possibility that you are already getting hifi out of it and the ODAC won't make any difference. It depends on the manufacturer. My 5 year old laptop has an output impedance of .5 and for the life of me I can't tell the difference between it and the O2/ODAC. A friends computer is the same. Both are Dells.

Is there a "good possibility?" Realtek has six different chipset implementation for 2 channel HD audio alone: http://www.realtek.com.tw/products/productsView.aspx?Langid=1&PNid=24&PFid=27&Level=5&Conn=4

Then there is the problem with believing that hearing things to be the same is somehow more valid than hearing differences. Listener bias is both a result of expectation and poor audio memory. So last fall when I had a chance to demo the Fire Phoenix DAC-02 and compare it with the output of my Xonar STX, I believed them to be roughly the same in SQ. But I did not try to claim that they sounded the same because of the listener bias and because I am not able to level match the two through a set of headphones. Without level matching, they MUST necessarily sound different. So you say that there was no difference, but in all likelihood there was a difference there because the odds are against level matching correctly by ear (I'm assuming you don't have sophisticated equipment to test this).

But it seems like we do agree on one thing. If someone wants to make sure that they have a hifi audio experience, the ODAC/O2 seems a good way to guarantee that.

 

[lorriman]

"Is there a "good possibility?"

Sure, and that's not an assertion of a fact. As I wrote, I was careful to qualifty myself.

"Then there is the problem with believing that hearing things to be the same is somehow more valid than hearing differences."

Hmmm, not sure my argument was that exactly; rather that my expectation bias was to hear a difference, and I didn't. Logically, that removes expectation bias from the picture, thus increasing the validity of the observation ("a pinch more valid"). Whether that actually produces an objective test is of course not the case, as I think we both agree of DBT. And that's why I qualified my observation. (However, I'm not ideologically against the implicit principal in your argument that no subjective options whould be expressed in the forums, but I'm not ideologically for that either).

"Listener bias is both a result of expectation and poor audio memory.

Sure, and I was careful to qualify my observation.

"Without level matching, they MUST necessarily sound different. So you say that there was no difference, but in all likelihood there was a difference there because the odds are against level matching correctly by ear (I'm assuming you don't have sophisticated equipment to test this)."

Without perfect level matching, the difference in levels may yet be very slight. Since they didn't sound different then there are three possibilities:

1)I level matched successfully
2)my audio memory failed me
3)even if my audio memory failed me: there was no significant difference that I could detect using this coarse method of comparison and that the level difference was slight. (I think all of us are familiar with huge differences in audio, heavy distortion etc).

As it happens I did attempt level matching by increasing volume of a test tone to the point of discomfort.

so while hearing a difference can be accounted for merely by expectation bias, I don't think that is the case with hearing no difference against one's expectation bias.

In anycase, I am not attempting to put an objective fact in front of anyone. My observation/test is justified as a healthy and equal counter to those who said that there will definitely be a marked improvement to an external DAC (see earlier in the thread): some of us are not hearing that marked difference even with an ODAC against a sigmatel.

In addition to which: it sows doubt as to that need, and so motivates the individual to determine an objective fact before making such an expensive purchase. Ideally, that would be to see independently verified measurements of a mobo sound card.