NWO 2.5t Who has heard or heard of it?

[recstar24]

I just checked out the website - man this guy is serious. Esoteric gear is hiend as it is, but to mod it by gutting it out and replacing almost everything is seriously what the hi-end and hifi is all about, I bet it sounds utterly amazing.

 

[tjkurita]

I only just noticed this thread. I was so caught up in my own digital. This is unbelievable! Is it me or have these leaps in digital playback been pretty significant in the last few years?

If it sounds as "real" as your experience seems to indicate, I would never want to hear it because my referenence would have to change. I'm really not looking for a paradigm shift right now!

I'm glad you live way over on the West Coast!

And don't waste this incredible source on headphones

!

Edit: What exactly does the vinyl experiment mean? Are those DVD-A sample rates? SACD? So if I understand right current redbook playback does not have the capability to reach high end vinyl, but higher resolution digital can? It seems interesting.

Damn. I need sleep. I've got to get away from these boards...

 

[daveDerek]

i can't seem to find much on this player. is this a one box unit? how much does it go for? is it only available directly from the manufacturer?

 

[spritzer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveDerek /img/forum/go_quote.gif i can't seem to find much on this player. is this a one box unit? how much does it go for? is it only available directly from the manufacturer?

It is basically a complete overhaul of an Esoteric UX-1 where everything but the case, transformers and the drive is replaced. The mods cost 15k$ and you need the player and that can be had new for 10k$.

See here

 

[neilvg]

Quote:

I only just noticed this thread. I was so caught up in my own digital. This is unbelievable! Is it me or have these leaps in digital playback been pretty significant in the last few years?

There have been some significant improvements in the last few years in DAC technology as far as I know.

Quote:

If it sounds as "real" as your experience seems to indicate, I would never want to hear it because my referenence would have to change. I'm really not looking for a paradigm shift right now!

It really is amazing. I've never been one for trying to reproduce what is real. My brain usually fills in the blanks. I'd much rather go for what sounds good and gets to me emotionally. However, this player marries both worlds and produces a life-like sound. there are not many players that even attempt this. Of course the associated equipment needs to be top notch and complimentary.

Quote:

I'm glad you live way over on the West Coast! And don't waste this incredible source on headphones ! Edit: What exactly does the vinyl experiment mean? Are those DVD-A sample rates? SACD? So if I understand right current redbook playback does not have the capability to reach high end vinyl, but higher resolution digital can? It seems interesting. Damn. I need sleep. I've got to get away from these boards...

Yep... there's been a lot going on in head-fi land recently... and coming up to. Interestingly enough, Alex loves RBCD and claims that it is one of the most perfect mediums. He designed this player to excell at RBCD. His claim is that most players have only begun to scratch the surface at what is possible. He thinks DVD-A and SACD are too polite, especially when kept in their native formats when processed through the DAC (MLP and DSD respectiely). He actually covnerts the High-Res formats to PCM and then upconverts them with his DAC using his own process. This he says creates a very lively and realistic rendering. What is happening with the vinyl experiment is that he is going in 192khz/24bit into a modified soundcard. He then burns this as a DVD-A or SACD (DVD-A most likely). The player then processes this like any other DVD-A recorded in this resolution (DVD-A supports 192/24 and 96/24). He then plays the vinyl itself, using his vinyl rig. The differences are very hard to hear if any. The end conclusion? The NWO 2.5t is a digital analog of vinyl - but with the technological benefits of digital.

It does seem that in the case of RBCD, we are limited to 16bit and will likely not be able to match the vinyl reproduction. However, the point of the experiment is that the player itself can, and Alex says his technology gets RBCD as close as it will get to Vinyl, and he seems to think that in some cases, it can best it.

Neil

 

[hciman77]

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilvg /img/forum/go_quote.gif One other thing that is interesting is that Alex has taken the output of his vinyl setup and input it into a highly modified PCI card in his computer which also has the AKM AD converter. He samples it at 192/24 and burns it via Discwelder. He then plays it on the NWO 2.5t and also on the Vinyl setup it originally came from. No difference can be heard!

This has been done many many times with ordinary 16 bit recordings of LP i.e www.matrixhifi.com and by folks on RAO. In no blind test anywhere has anybody (so far) been able to tell the difference between LP and decent CD-R copy of LP. 16 bits is enough to make an undistinguishable copy of LP.

 

[neilvg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hciman77 This has been done many many times with ordinary 16 bit recordings of LP i.e www.matrixhifi.com and by folks on RAO. In no blind test anywhere has anybody (so far) been able to tell the difference between LP and decent CD-R copy of LP. 16 bits is enough to make an undistinguishable copy of LP.

Are you saying, regardless of the source the 16bit version is played on, and regardless of the LP it was transferred from and played back on, nobody has been able to tell the difference between LP and CD?

I will check out the link.....



.....Ok so I checked it out. Interesting web site, they are definitely on their own kick. I like it when people challenge themselves and the common perception. However, I cannot comment as to the validity, or if I agree or not simply because there are too many factors involved. I'd really have had to have been there. One thing that is for certain - when I change out equipment in my own setup, yes it is not double blind or what have you, but without regard to preference of the actual hardware, I can always come to a conclusion on what it is I like and do not like about what I am hearing. This seems to remain consistant and this is also what changes when certain equipment is swapped out. Now sometimes it is the case that I don't hear a difference.

In the case of Alex's machine versus the stock UX-1... I have no doubts that almost anybody with reasonable experience in music listening would be able to tell that the players were different. I can see how it could be possible that someoen might prefer one to the other, or simply might not care. Also, the way it seems to be with human psychology is that, once some detail or aspect is noticed, it cannot be easily 'un-noticed' henceforth. However, before this has occured, it may not exist to perception at all. In the case of two systems that have been heard for the first time, both of which are quite different, both in electronics and in dollar value, I still hold that it is possible that it can take some time to really distinguish the subtle differences, that, once perceived, are far more obvious and evident.

It can be similar to two people looking at two paintings. One painting has been done by an amateur, and looks great, but is not a masterpiece. The other is. When viewed briefly and for the first time, both people, regardless of experience with paintings, may not notice much of a difference. These things sometimes come with time. On the other hand, one of them might and the other might not. It all depends. This, to me, has less to do with the equipment (or paintings) and more to do with the situation, time, and experience involved. It is true that the extreme high-end of audio can sometimes be a subtle art - but subtlety can still be quite potent, once realized.

I do not know what is going on, with great specificity, concerning the blind tests. However, like most things in life, there is always simultenously more and less to it, depending on who you are, what you already believe, and of course, how deeply you want to look... just my 25 cents here.

Neil

 

[hciman77]

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilvg /img/forum/go_quote.gif Are you saying, regardless of the source the 16bit version is played on, and regardless of the LP it was transferred from and played back on, nobody has been able to tell the difference between LP and CD? I will check out the link. Neil

Sorry for being unclear. The model is this. An LP is recorded from turntable A to a digital system from which a CD-R is made. The CD-R is played back on a competent CD system and the LP is played back on Turntable A.

Both are played back through the same Amp and Speakers though obviously the TT goes through a phono-stage. When this is done level matched and blind nobody (so far) can tell which is which.

I rechecked the MatrixHifi.com link and the LP VS CD-R test has moved, I will search out the exact location and repost.

EDIT: here it is and in English too !

http://www.matrixhifi.com/ENG_marco.htm
click on the Red Zone link,
then select 02/10/2003: Recording Vinyl onto CD-R


Here is a snippet

well, the evidence herein is what it is, and only the incredulity of all there present was the reason to repeat the tests until we were totally convinced: THE “ANALOGUE SOUND” RECORDED ONTO A CD IS PRESERVED 100%.
For years we have been reading on magazines and hearing audiophiles talk about the superiority of the analogue sound over the digital sound, inspite of all limitations already described above and with simple systems available to everybody, we can produce a CDr that preserves the unrivalled quality of the analogue sources. This is a paradox, it makes fall apart all the previous theories

 

[neilvg]

All the info is on the site as you say - check my original reply to you as I have added some comments. They are still far to vague in terms of system specifics for me. They are very detailed when it comes to explaining their methodology, and I believe what they say. I just don't know if I will experience it the same way (although I'm sure all of us audiophiles share some of this same hubris in this regard).

Neil

 

[hciman77]

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilvg /img/forum/go_quote.gif All the info is on the site as you say - check my original reply to you as I have added some comments. They are still far to vague in terms of system specifics for me. They are very detailed when it comes to explaining their methodology, and I believe what they say. I just don't know if I will experience it the same way (although I'm sure all of us audiophiles share some of this same hubris in this regard). Neil

The issue I have with this one test is that unlike all the others they report they do not explicitly state that it is blind. Their philosophy is to do blind tests and all their other tests are blind but carefully reading this one they do not explicitly say so. Sadly this is damaging to my argument of CD transparency as without it being blind human bias comes into play. Also I wonder about having several subjects at once again I think this is a problem as all sorts of peer influence issues can surface, again this does weaken my argument but there it is.

On a technical basis 99% of LPs can manage under 80db dynamic range over 20 - 20k this is utterly trivial for a 16/44.1 system to capture. In the famous Ivor Tiefenbrun LP12 vs LP12 a/d/d/a tests a first gen Sony PCM-F1 (16 bit) was utterly undetectable.

 

[tjkurita]

Here are pics of the VRDS transport that I think will be in Neil's player. No wonder APL opts to build their NWO 2.5 around it. Die cast aluminum all around, two rails for the pickup... Audio p*rn*graphy if I have ever seen it:

 

[hciman77]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjkurita /img/forum/go_quote.gif Here are pics of the VRDS transport

I would have more confidence in a company that did not need to publish such blatantly misleading representations of other pickups.

The pictures imply first that other pickups have a stunning level of inaccuracy in terms of massive wobble, pure bollocks as the player would just never work they would never track at all, and secondly that other pickups with one rail have transports that hang off the rail in space, also bollocks, nobody in their right mind would do that, the sleds generally have a rail one side and rest on the frame on the other.

Wanting to sing the praises of your product is understandable but to do so by being basically dishonest about your competitors is a bit weak.

 

[neilvg]

I don't know if those depictions necessarily insinuate all that, but here are some actual photos:

Denon Player & VRDS NEO

Phillips Player & VRDS NEO

Pioneer Player & VRDS NEO

All three transports stacked up (literally) against the VRDS NEO

More information/discussion from the Apl forums about these transports
http://www.aplhifi.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=560

Now obviously there is a whole lot more to a source than just the transport. The EMM player sounds awesome and as we know, it makes use of that Phillips transport. Actually, it makes use of a 'newer' one that is all plastic. Although, in terms of build and looks, that Esoteric transport does look impressive to me. Also, Esoteric is not the only one to use the VRDS. I believe Wadia (and probably others) have used/do use this as well.

Neil

 

[morphsci]

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilvg /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't know if those depictions necessarily insinuate all that, but here are some actual photos:

x2. They are just images. They are qualitative depictions not quantitative measures of anything. Lighten up and enjoy the music, you'll live longer and enjoy yourself more. IMO of course

 

[hciman77]

Quote:

Originally Posted by morphsci /img/forum/go_quote.gif x2. They are just images. They are qualitative depictions not quantitative measures of anything. Lighten up and enjoy the music, you'll live longer and enjoy yourself more. IMO of course

Okay, I overreaacted, I should know better and I have high blood pressure already, I just have this knee-jerk reaction to iffy advertising, too many years living in America perhaps

peace and love