No kidding...This is the Ultimate Tweak!! The Audio Desk System
Jan 28, 2008 at 7:04 PM Post #241 of 262
Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I'm refusing from this debate, but will report my listening impressions with the trimmed CDs later (for the people interested in such real-world things).


Will you admit the possibility of expectancy bias and do the listening tests blind?

--Chris
 
Jan 28, 2008 at 10:24 PM Post #242 of 262
Quote:

Originally Posted by hempcamp /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Will you admit the possibility of expectancy bias and do the listening tests blind?


I think I can handle expectancy bias, which I admit is possible and will be there to some degree, but I'll do my comparison like I do all my auditions: under real-world conditions (= sighted), relaxed and critical at the same time. That's the best precondition I can think of and will produce real-world results.
.
 
Jan 28, 2008 at 11:45 PM Post #243 of 262
Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif
That's the best precondition I can think of and will produce real-world results.


I love that our hobby is the only hobby or discipline I know of where a rigorous methodology is not compatible with "real world."

It brings to my mind the image of a group of geeks benchmarking the latest speed demon computer by counting off in their heads how long it takes to complete a task in Photoshop, because that is somehow "more natural." Sure, the task may be real-world, but they are measuring it with an imaginary yardstick.

It's very quaint and endearing -- has a bit of a 16th century mystique about it.
smily_headphones1.gif


--Chris
 
Jan 31, 2008 at 7:00 AM Post #244 of 262
Quote:

Originally Posted by hempcamp /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Will you admit the possibility of expectancy bias and do the listening tests blind?

--Chris



Give it a rest buddy, read the intro comments about not raising double blind testing issues.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Semantics again. So sad! You don't seem to be interested in the topic.

I really don't want to make any premature statements about the pretended function of the Audio Desk System -- it isn't even clear if vibration reduction is the beneficial effect or rather reduced scatter light. My only concern was the categorization of this device as similarly unlikely to work as tweaks such as Rainbow Foil, which is clearly not adequate: it has the potential to work. There are the reported experiences in terms of heard and felt vibrations with rotating CDs and the reduction of them after treatment (both consequently ignored and no interest to reproduce the simple tests) as well as the positive listening reports, and there are the persistent decryings and diabolisations of an unknown product as well as the programmed confusion...

I'm retiring from this debate, but will report my listening impressions with the trimmed CDs later (for the people interested in such real-world things).
.



I look forward to comments from someone with some actual experience so that hter can be meaningful dialogue.

Of course not everyone likes the same things in sound. I hang out a lot in the Stax headphone thread and see some marked differences in the evaluation of even their most expensive systems, eg, the O2, where comments range from "the best in the world," " second best," "third best," to "I sold mine because I couldn't stand them."
 
Jan 31, 2008 at 8:27 AM Post #245 of 262
Quote:

Originally Posted by edstrelow /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Give it a rest buddy, read the intro comments about not raising double blind testing issues.


Funny, I don't see the words "Moderator" under your name.
rolleyes.gif


Contribute to the dialogue, or stay out, but don't play tattle-tale, please. This isn't kindergarten.

--Chris
 
Jan 31, 2008 at 6:55 PM Post #246 of 262
It seems to me when someone says, "I believe expectancy bias is possible, but I can handle it" it's pretty clear that they either don't believe in expectancy bias or they don't understand it.

See ya
Steve
 
Feb 1, 2008 at 5:34 AM Post #248 of 262
Quote:

Originally Posted by hempcamp /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I love that our hobby is the only hobby or discipline I know of where a rigorous methodology is not compatible with "real world."

It brings to my mind the image of a group of geeks benchmarking the latest speed demon computer by counting off in their heads how long it takes to complete a task in Photoshop, because that is somehow "more natural." Sure, the task may be real-world, but they are measuring it with an imaginary yardstick.

It's very quaint and endearing -- has a bit of a 16th century mystique about it.
smily_headphones1.gif


--Chris



Do you actually own a hat with a propellor on the top?


I keeed, I keeeed!!!
 
Feb 1, 2008 at 11:04 AM Post #249 of 262
Quote:

Originally Posted by yotacowboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Do you actually own a hat with a propellor on the top?


I keeed, I keeeed!!!



You can have mine, if you're willing to trade it for your tin foil hat.
tongue.gif
 
Feb 1, 2008 at 2:46 PM Post #250 of 262
Quote:

Originally Posted by hempcamp /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Funny, I don't see the words "Moderator" under your name.
rolleyes.gif


Contribute to the dialogue, or stay out, but don't play tattle-tale, please. This isn't kindergarten.

--Chris



Chris, I find it better to moderate ourselves or each other here, so we don't have to have heavy moderation . I have called quite a few people out on ad hominem attacks or tried to get a thread back on topic, rather than just report posts to moderators.

I realize that skeptics are at a disadvantage that can't prove their side of the debate and most don't want to listen to science, so everyone is forced to believe every tweek, because they heard it with their ears.
 
Feb 2, 2008 at 12:40 AM Post #251 of 262
Actually, it isn't a disadvantage. We aren't forbidden to discuss the conclusions from published scientific tests. We're just asked not to discuss DBT methodology. It's the folks who argue endlessly about the "proper" way to conduct a DBT and offer convoluted hoops for tests to jump through to satisfy them that are the problem, not the skeptics.

See ya
Steve
 
Feb 11, 2008 at 2:02 PM Post #252 of 262
Impressions

As promised, here's my review of some Audio Desk treated CDs -- more precisely CD-Rs: I didn't want to buy the reference CDs a second time, so CD-R copies were the way to go. The more so as the essence of my collection consists of sound-edited CD-R duplicates with a customized crossfeed as main (and in most cases only) editing purpose. This particularly in view of my electrostatic system; but even with my dynamic system I prefer my own crossfeed implementation to that of the Opera.

My system can be seen in my signature. The most used headphones were my two electrostats, but I also used the K 701 and the HD 650 to verify the results on the dynamic setup.

It was Head-Fier Anders who generously offered to treat some of my CDs with his Audio Desk system. So I sent six CD-Rs to him. They came back with bevelled edges, additionally painted black (although hard to see on the five Fuji Photo discs which are black by nature).

The first album I auditioned and compared was Henri Dutilleux's violin concerto (Chandos 9853 -- 4-disc set). As hard as I concentrated, I couldn't identify any sonic difference between treated and untreated disc. Sometimes I thought the treated disc had a bit less extension to both extremes, especially at the lower end, but I absolutely couldn't decide if the difference was real or imagined.

The next one was Kamran Ince's orchestral works (symphonies No.3 and 4, Domes -- Naxos 8.557588). Exactly the same scenario as above: no clear difference.

The third test sample was Public Image Limited's «Compact Disc». Now, after a few runs, there was a characteristic difference: less bass power and less treble sparkle with the treated disk -- making me prefer the untreated copy which seemed to have higher energy and impact. There was also more flow to the music, whereas the treated CD showed a slight dryness, but also higher accuracy. There was one track, «Round», which I enjoyed more from the treated disc: The phase-distorted cymbals on the intro had more atmosphere, the electronic effect was more detailed, and the whole track was somehow more musical, with a warmer, more intimate touch and higher detail. Every other track sounded rounder, livelier and more spectacular from the untreated disc, although I could live with both presentations and their advantages and downsides.

Since rock recordings seemed to reveal the effect better, the next CD was Radiohead's «In Rainbows». Which threw me back almost to the beginning. It was hard to identify differences again.

But the more I listened -- meanwhile during several days, but not more than half an hour per session --, the clearer the effect of the bevelling became. Although the above is still true: The PIL album shows the effect in the most pronounced manner. This may have to do with the fact that the recording is rich on transients (drum beats, cymbals, hi-hat), much more so than the other recordings. The main effect consists of leaner bass and less treble sparkle. I'm not sure if the latter isn't in fact a consequence of the former, however, at times it pays off as increased accuracy and detail sharpness, and this throughout the sonic spectrum. Another effect, which I consider a general disadvantage, is the narrower soundstage. As to the reduced (low-)bass power and treble sparkle: the headphone suffering most from it was the K 701.

Summary: In my system and to my ears the Audio Desk treated CDs made a noticeable, but not a night-and day difference compared to the «originals». Although the effect covers a wider sonic spectrum than usual cable effects I'm familiar with, I'd rate it as somewhat less pronounced than typical cable characteristics. The positive effects don't clearly outweigh the negatives to my ears, so the Audio Desk system isn't a must-have in my book. Which is actually a good thing (money saved), and at the same time the result is interesting food for thoughts, as the test didn't result in the halfways expected «zero effect» judgement, and the effect is far from being explainable, in contrast to conventional audio phenomena -- at least if you don't belong to those who «know» that it's just imagined anyway. I will further occupy myself with the subject and don't exclude that I'll finally make friends with the bevelled-edges effect.
.
 
Feb 11, 2008 at 2:53 PM Post #253 of 262
Jazz,

Thanks a lot for your observations, and kudos to your willingness to experiment yourself.

Although I like what I hear with the treated discs, different people can form their own opinions, and it is not necessary your impressions have to matched mine, as long as yours are based on your own experience.

F. Lo
 
Feb 11, 2008 at 6:34 PM Post #254 of 262
Jazz, thanks for the interesting test. We have both noticed a difference. In my case I have interpreted it as usually positive although it has happened that a few few disks sounded a little sharper and then I suspected that flaws in the system were highlighted rather than the treatment itself, but that is of course an interpretation of my observation. Obviously, system balance is changed and then there is the same problem as when we change a cable or a component, it could become better in some parameters but the system balance can tip over in the wrong direction. It is not unusual that things work differently in different systems and for different listeners. I have no good idea under what conditions the treatment works and not works. System balance is one idea except that the system should have some reasonable degree of resolution before the difference is audible and it was in your test. Finally, I wondered a little about your sound edited albums, perhaps you had edited them to sound optimal in your current system, but I assume that then more editing than crossfeed should be required.

I have never treated CDR's before and it is hard to see that these should differ from CDs. Maybe, black material could make a difference and one part of the tweak is to paint the edge black, maybe not necessary if the disc already is black and making the tweak less effective than with normal discs. This is speculation.
 
Feb 11, 2008 at 7:06 PM Post #255 of 262
Here's an interesting test to try:

Do treated CDs rip faster in EAC (with zero errors)? If so, there probably is something to it (the data can be read from the CDs error-free at a higher rate).

Keep in mind a CD is just media for digital data. Jitter does not come from the CD, it comes from the device reading the CD and sending the data it recovers to another component (either externally via a digital connection, or internally to a DAC chip) if (and only if) the data is being sent in a precisely timed manner.
 

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