[artur9]

I would love a small, USB/optical DAC with that outputs 2V under $50. I feel like this could be it if not for the MQA tax.

Saw some DACs on eBay for less than $6. You could buy a bunch

 

[Ham Sandwich]

@BS5711 is it possible to have a consistent summary of the differences people hear on the high/low gain settings?

I would wager (not a lot, mind ) that there is no consistency of impression that changing those settings have. That is, what effect on the sound it has besides changing the volume.

There will be more consistency about high/low gain if you group the impressions into those with experience listening to and evaluating higher quality amps and gear and those who only listen to more budget amps and gear.

The Piety has a more obvious sonic presentation difference between high gain and low gain than almost any other solid state amp I can recall. It's almost like getting two amps in one. The high gain version with its sonic presentation, and the low gain version with a different presentation. High gain is a little more aggressive but the soundstage also shrinks. Low gain is a softer presentation but has a larger and more cohesive soundstage. The relative differences between gain settings do depend on the headphones and DAC used.

 

[Currawong]

Well, my Modi+ randomly bricked this evening after owning it for less than 12 hours. So no more listening to the Piety for a while. But from the short amount of listening I was able to do this morning, I do know that I love it and am keeping it, so just a matter of finding another DAC! (I have phenomenally bad luck with tech stuff sometimes, so this didn't surprise me).

Maybe it's telling you that you should get a Modi Multibit?

Humour aside, if your electronics are failing often, I'd check that there aren't issues with the power in your place. Years ago, I used to do computer tech support, and we'd have customers come in whose computer had issues, but would work perfectly in our shop. I guessed, rightly, that it was the power supply in their home or office that was the cause.

 

[Jimmyblues1959]

I understand where you are coming from. For me though, the cheaper SMSL's are too sterile for my taste. I believe that there are noticeable differences between dacs. For a lot of reasons. A lot of good DACS out there that suit my tastes better at similiar price points. Thank being said, YMMV!!!! Good luck, and enjoy your music!



Leo

Finding an inexpensive dac that sounds good can be a challenge. There's a lot of inexpensive ones that do sound marginal. However, there are some very nice affordable ones out there too.

A few years back I purchased an ifi Zen Dac Signature V1 and Zen Can Signature HD6XX to use with my Sennheiser HD6XX headphones and found them to offer a nice synergy.

What I did not realize was how pleasant the Zen Dac Signature sounded on its own. It has since become part of my daily driver headfi system.

I remember reading a post by Marv over at SBAF in regard to the ifi Zen Dac Signature (original version), which he describes in some detail. The bottom line is that he liked it (and he's very discriminating) and felt that it was a good value at the price. I think it was $249.99US at the time. What surprised me was that Marv also thought it sounded better than the Schiit Modi Multibit (this was pre MM2), which has been very well received since its inception. I know that Marv has access to some very nice gear, and from what I have read, he's not easily impressed. Which makes his comments regarding the Zen Dac Signature V1 even more impressive.

So for those looking for a very nice sounding affordable dac, you may want to give this dac a try. Or, the Zen Dac Signature 2 (or even the regular Zen Dac V2 which I also believe Marv liked).

 

[Currawong]

I believe that the ideal ratio of amplifier output impedance to headphone impedance should be 1/8 of the impedance of the headphone you are using. For example, if the output impedance of your headphone amplifier is 20 ohms, then the ideal match would be a headphone with a 160 ohm impedance (or 8x that impedance).

It's amazing how an idea from a single person, maybe as much as a decade ago, can become distorted and turn into meaning things that they didn't in the first place.
Tyll Hertzens, who was very famous in the hobby, as he made the first commercial portable amplifier (under the HeadRoom brand -- now long defunct), then went on to measure headphones and write for Innerfidelity, which Stereophile shut down (as after Tyll retired, the person they selected to take over was worse than useless), suggested that a headphone amplifier, ideally, should have an output impedance at least 1/8th or lower than the impedance of the headphones it was driving. This is connected with damping factor.

Long story short, as a speaker or headphone driver is extended by voltage, it will return to its original position, in turn generating voltage that it will send back to the amplifier. To lessen distortion from this, the driver more or less "driving" the headphone amp, the amplifier should have an impedance that is considerably lower. Tyll suggested 1/8th or lower.

The downside to this is that people became overly obsessed with low output impedance after Astell&Kern's original AK100 player had an output impedance that was 30 Ohms, to the point that people would lose their minds if it were not near zero Ohms. However, if it's too low (<1 Ohm for headphone amps) sensitive IEMs especially can easily pick up hiss from the electronics. If it's too high (<5 Ohms maybe?) then some multiple driver IEMs with a non-flat impedance curve will often end up with frequency response changes as a result. My experience suggests 2 Ohms for headphone amps is about ideal, but there are quite a few other factors in this to be considered.

I remember reading a post by Marv over at SBAF in regard to the ifi Zen Dac Signature (original version), which he describes in some detail. The bottom line is that he liked it (and he's very discriminating) and felt that it was a good value at the price. I think it was $249.99US at the time. What surprised me was that Marv also thought it sounded better than the Schiit Modi Multibit (this was pre MM2), which has been very well received since its inception. I know that Marv has access to some very nice gear, and from what I have read, he's not easily impressed. Which makes his comments regarding the Zen Dac Signature V1 even more impressive.

I rather like the iFi BB/TI-based DACs and how they sound, so I concur with this idea, if they've fixed the issue with their PSUs constantly failing. However, Marv also helped tune the HD8XX, and we all know how that turned out. I don't recommend putting people on pedestals in this, or any hobby, including me.

 

[Runrunsmithfly]

Reading through this thread just shows you how wide of arc listeners opinions swing. It's all subjective.

 

[BS5711]

Reading through this thread just shows you how wide of arc listeners opinions swing. It's all subjective.

That is absolutely correct.

I don't hear a difference between low and high gain on the Piety at all and frankly I don't hear much or any difference between the Piety and other amps that I have or have had and since sold on.

I hate to say it but if I can't hear any difference when I know my hearing is at least normal and the reported differences in sound between various amps or any other devices are all over the place in terms of the nature of the difference and reportedly vary from slight to absolutely night and day I don't have much faith in much of anything I read about what I apparently am not hearing that others do hear.

 

[Ham Sandwich]

That is absolutely correct.

I don't hear a difference between low and high gain on the Piety at all and frankly I don't hear much or any difference between the Piety and other amps that I have or have had and since sold on.

I hate to say it but if I can't hear any difference when I know my hearing is at least normal and the reported differences in sound between various amps or any other devices are all over the place in terms of the nature of the difference and reportedly vary from slight to absolutely night and day I don't have much faith in much of anything I read about what I apparently am not hearing that others do hear.

It's not about having exceptional hearing. It's about allowing your brain to get acclimated to good audio sound and get used to that. The brain learns what good audio sound is and adapts to expect that style of sound when exposed to high quality audio for long enough. You don't need exceptional hearing acuity for the brain to adapt and learn. You just need time with a variety of good gear.

There are listening tests out there for determining if you have golden ears. Those tests are largely BS. Cause they're testing for the wrong things. They're testing for things like if you can hear minute EQ changes and very low level sounds at various frequencies. None of that will help you learn what to listen for when comparing low gain and high gain with the Piety.

Instead listen to a variety of good audio gear (the actual subjectively good stuff that experienced audiophiles say sounds really good) and your brain will naturally adapt and learn what those sound qualities are and recognize that they're good. The brain will learn to hear differences in timing and impulse and whether the sound seems hard or soft and soundstage size and whether the imaging of individual sounds and instruments have their own 3D space around them and other aspects about imaging and soundstage and what happens when you flip absolute polarity (absolute phase) and a whole lot of other subjective things. Allow the brain to learn to hear and appreciate some of those things and the differences between high gain and low gain on the Piety will become obvious.

I do not have exceptional hearing acuity if you tested me for frequency response and how well I can hear low level sine wave tones. Yet I'm able to hear audiophile sound qualities in gear that young people with exceptional hearing test acuity are unable to hear. Why is that? The why is because I've spent the past 10 years listening to some pretty good headphone gear and my brain has adapted to expect that level and quality of sound. When I hear lower end gear that doesn't do that I notice. Yet if you tested me to determine if I can hear a 0.5 dB or 1 dB EQ difference or some other subtle objective listening test I would probably fail.

The moral is if you listen to the good gear and get used to it then forever be spoiled and you can't go back. If you don't want to be disappointed with the Piety then don't ever listen to the better gear for long enough that your brain adapts to want and expect that better gear sound qualities.

 

[dstarr3]

The thing that really helped me train my ear was getting one example from each extreme end of the spectrum. For instance the Bottlehead Crack is probably the most affordable amp on the extreme tube end of the spectrum, whereas you can also get something from Topping or SMSL to get a taste of the extreme solid-state end. When you've got two extreme opposite examples like that, the differences really are night and day. And then you can just bring yourself in a little bit on each end of the spectrum with more examples and teach yourself more and more about what you like and dislike, what you can hear and what you can't.

 

[BS5711]

It sounds like I have never listened to anything exceptional enough nor poor enough to understand that there are differences that I might hear but haven't had the appropriately good and/or bad gear to hear.

I am OK with that, I enjoy what I have and do not have any inclination to invest even more money to learn what really high end sounds like to only become disappointed with what I have already.

Perhaps I could so it the other way around, what is the crappiest DAC/amp available that will then make my iFi Diablo sound phenomenal ?

 

[theveterans]

what is the crappiest DAC/amp available that will then make my iFi Diablo sound phenomenal ?

$9 Apple Lightning Dongle. It should definitely sound distinctly different than any 99 USD DACs out there, but YMMV.

 

[BS5711]

$9 Apple Lightning Dongle. It should definitely sound distinctly different than any 99 USD DACs out there, but YMMV.

I have listened to my Apple Dongle versus the Diablo and to be honest it is a decent clean DAC and pretty much OK with easy to drive IEM.

Is there something that would be a distinctly different sound ? The most different I have heard, I think I mentioned it the other day, was an AliExpress PCM56 based R2R DAC. That was still perfectly pleasant but notably soft compared to modern gear. Is there something similar in a more modern and convenient package ?

I think much of the "problem" is that I listen most days all day while I work and I quickly get used to whatever I am listening with and just enjoy the music, I don't often sit and try and dissect the minutiae of the sound between two devices.

 

[Ham Sandwich]

It sounds like I have never listened to anything exceptional enough nor poor enough to understand that there are differences that I might hear but haven't had the appropriately good and/or bad gear to hear.

I am OK with that, I enjoy what I have and do not have any inclination to invest even more money to learn what really high end sounds like to only become disappointed with what I have already.

Perhaps I could so it the other way around, what is the crappiest DAC/amp available that will then make my iFi Diablo sound phenomenal ?

You're looking at this the wrong way. You should be looking to get to hear better gear that makes the iFi Diablo sound average. Hearing a variety of that better gear is the style and level of sound quality that may get you to hear that amps do have sound quality differences, and can in fact have significant sound quality differences once you get to hear the really good stuff.

Do you have any headphone meets in your area where people bring some high-end gear you can try?

It was going to headphone meets 12-15 years ago where I got to hear some really good gear that got me to realize that wow I didn't know headphones and amps could sound this good and have this much headstage and this much imaging and this much musical enjoyment. It was those meets that got me to realize I need to chase that level of headphone sound quality, but somehow do it for less money. I got to hear a variety of really good headphone systems. Some solid state, some tube, some with NOS DACs and some with oversampling DACs (like Benchmark and Berkeley Alpha). You need to get to hear more than just the iFi Diablo to understand and experience what the better headphone gear does and how good it can sound.

Once you hear a variety of the better higher-end gear you'll be in a better position to hear what the difference are between high gain and low gain with the Piety.

When listening to high gain and low gain with the Piety you should be listening for the sense of space in the headstage, the sense of density in the sound and music, the sense of punch in the transients, and the sense of space around instruments in the mix. And things like that. Pretend you're stoned and listening, really listening, into the space in the recording and the feeling of the sound. That's when you'll start hearing what's different between high gain and low gain.

 

[BS5711]

You're looking at this the wrong way. You should be looking to get to hear better gear that makes the iFi Diablo sound average. Hearing a variety of that better gear is the style and level of sound quality that may get you to hear that amps do have sound quality differences, and can in fact have significant sound quality differences once you get to hear the really good stuff.

Do you have any headphone meets in your area where people bring some high-end gear you can try?

It was going to headphone meets 12-15 years ago where I got to hear some really good gear that got me to realize that wow I didn't know headphones and amps could sound this good and have this much headstage and this much imaging and this much musical enjoyment. It was those meets that got me to realize I need to chase that level of headphone sound quality, but somehow do it for less money. I got to hear a variety of really good headphone systems. Some solid state, some tube, some with NOS DACs and some with oversampling DACs (like Benchmark and Berkeley Alpha). You need to get to hear more than just the iFi Diablo to understand and experience what the better headphone gear does and how good it can sound.

Once you hear a variety of the better higher-end gear you'll be in a better position to hear what the difference are between high gain and low gain with the Piety.

When listening to high gain and low gain with the Piety you should be listening for the sense of space in the headstage, the sense of density in the sound and music, the sense of punch in the transients, and the sense of space around instruments in the mix. And things like that. Pretend you're stoned and listening, really listening, into the space in the recording and the feeling of the sound. That's when you'll start hearing what's different between high gain and low gain.

I will take the advice in the manner that I understand it was intended, that being in a helpful way to guide me to maybe hear what others talk about as I have been discussing.

However, intent aside, I don't actually "need" to do anything and I am not looking at it "wrong". I am doing what suits me in accordance with my level of interest and my priorities. This is an entirely subjective hobby undertaken by people of all walks of life, on all sorts of budgets and with all sorts of other interests and priorities.

No I don't have headphone meets in my area and even if I did I am not sure I would be interested. I don't need to experience equipment that makes my existing gear sound average when I have no desire to spend the amount money on this hobby that some people do. I spend enough as it is and I have no desire to intentionally try to find other gear that is likely to come at a cost that I have no interest in spending.

And once again you are comparing and referencing equipment that costs orders of magnitude more.

I have another rather expensive hobby and if I didn't put the money into that I could buy pretty much whatever headphone gear I wanted, this hobby just isn't that important to me. Yes I enjoy it and I like the toys and nice sound but my limits of investment and involvement are clearly different to some others.

I would like to understand the differences that others hear and I will listen as you indicated when I get a bit of quiet time at home but improving my understanding isn't going to be via the path you outlined above, it just doesn't matter that much to me.

But, all that aside, there are boatloads of guys on these forums with mid fi gear only that claim to hear tiny differences in sound that to them makes one average device better than another.

I will perhaps just have to accept that due to my physiology and/or level of interest and involvement in this hobby I might never hear what it seems others do.

I can live with that, I just like to enjoy music with a selection of decent equipment.

 

[HWB3]

Pretend you're stoned and listening, really listening, into the space in the recording and the feeling of the sound. That's when you'll start hearing what's different between high gain and low gain.

That is really great advice. I love it. Lol.