[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bangraman If you want to put up with that you believe out of your own practical, mid/long-term experience to be the superior Discman as of the moment and are willing to send it to me (at my own expense), I'm perfectly willing to wave my ding-doing around and purchase / re-purchase the 'best of current breed of hp/lo out' and have them compared by a bunch of UK/US head-fiers (blahblahblahblah...)

What's truly amazing is how you continue to believe I give a rat's **** about your opinion. Now go listen to your craptastic Chinese-sweatshop-made DAP (and stop playing audiophile on the Internet).

 

[bangraman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fewtch What's truly amazing is how you continue to believe I give a rat's **** about your opinion. Now go listen to your craptastic Chinese-sweatshop-made DAP.

It wouldn't have been my opinion alone, but by the tone of that post I see that you're not interested in anywhere near objective comparisons so further discussion would be moot. Please do continue listening to your superceded PCDP's, and if Head-Fi still exists in 5 ~ 10 years time I look forward to you proclaiming that the current iRiver / iPod / iAudios are the best sources ever when they reduce in price sufficiently for you to be able to collect them.


Do drop me a PM when or if you're prepared to take up my offer. We can arrange it stateside or over here.

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bangraman It wouldn't have been my opinion alone, but by the tone of that post I see that you're not interested in anywhere near objective comparisons

Objective comparisons? What are you doing, measuring THD%? There's no such thing as an objective comparison when determining whether something sounds "better." All you can determine (semi-objectively) is whether or not two players sound *different*. "Better" is a subjective value judgment.

Were you born yesterday, or is it that you're really just not too bright?

Given your posts up to now, I'd guess a bit of both.

 

[bangraman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fewtch Objective comparisons? What are you doing, measuring THD%? There's no such thing as an objective comparison when determining whether something sounds "better." All you can determine (semi-objectively) is whether or not two players sound *different*. Were you really born yesterday, or is it that you're just not exactly a MENSA candidate?

Oh no... nothing of the kind. For example, matching levels as precisely as possible when listening is more objective. Very minor changes in dynamics can affect judgement in an A/B test of which is 'better' even if they sound exactly the same. Listening is subjective at best but there is no harm in devising ways to make the comparison slightly more reliable.


I was actually invited to join MENSA, but they seemed awfully dull.

 

[fewtch]

One thing I will give you -- you're very good at wasting people's time, for a guy who doesn't even like the sound of vintage players. What are you, just a contrarian who enjoys annoying others? Or do you have some ulterior motive for pushing the latest cheap chinese crap... Maybe some day you'll figure out that I only listen amped from line-out jacks (which many newer portables don't even have), so your "level matching" straw man doesn't even come into the picture.

 

[D555]

I have three portable bags:

"Vintage" : Sony D-555, MZ1, MZ-R3, SRF-A1, FD-30A (Watchman with one of the best portable FM tuners I've ever used), RM-DM1K, batteries and AC adapters and recharger.

"10" Series : Sony D-NE10, MZ-N10, SRF-M10, AC adapters

"OLED" Series : Sony MZ-NH10, NW-E507, AC adapters

Sennheiser PX-100 and Sony MDR-EX70 used interchangeably.

Each bag has its purpose. The "10" and "OLED" bags are significantly lighter but he "Vintage" bag is a whole lot of fun. I think each bag has very good/excellent sound.

The Vintage bag is characterized by strong, "high wattage" output. These devices weren't made for knockabout use by kids but for adult technolgy enthusiasts. Battery life is a secondary concern.

The "10" series offers excellent sound and solid, if lightweight, metal build. Battery life is significantly increased and tonnage signficantly reduced. With increased compression, shock resistance, and storage capacity, these are truly portable units.

The "OLED" is the present and future. Lightweight build, increased battery life, new-style displays, digital amps, and even further capacity make for very portable listening while the sound is still solid. These models reflect, to some degree, the very competitive and rapidly changing nature of the market.

I wonder if Sony will create an OLED equipped PCDP?

The A3000 is still curiously absent from Sony USA.

Paul

 

[gsferrari]

Before this thread gets locked - calm down people...

I want these PCDPs because they have excellent build quality and they sound better than any PCDPs out there in the market. I will still prefer my Rio Karma because I believe it offers more convenience and better sound quality. Not to mention...actually being portable.

I havent inserted my D25 into my main headphone rig for one reason...it is flogged by my other vintage cdp - the micromega T-Drive and T-DAC - to such an extent that I came close to selling the D25.

I realized that it was particularly useful at work where my peers brought their CDs and modern PCDPs and shared their music. The D25 found a niche application and it has stayed that way. I love it's looks, build quality and sound - but it is delusional to say that it is the better of the two when compared with the Rio Karma.

On that note - I would prefer the D25 over several budget sources that are well regarded here on HeadFi. This PCDP does nothing wrong...it just doesnt do anything special that makes it stand out IMO. I could be wrong making such a sweeping generalization considering that my experience with PCDPs is limited to 3 units - but from my personal experience, my observation holds good.

 

[Ubijza]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bangraman The car analogy's always a good one isn't it? Let me give you one of mine. Drive an 80's near-supercar back to back on a track with one of the leading '05 high-performance compacts, and if you're totally focused on the driving experience you'll notice a sizeable improvement with the compact. If you however step back and let the image and the pedigree of the 80's car as well as it's relative rarity these days colour your opinions, then you may well be lead to say that's a better car. And for some, it surely is a better car. The 'classic' 80's performance car may also get you more kudos among the car geeks, but if someone asks which is the better-handling car, you would still be wrong to answer "the 80's car". 10 times huh? Better toss the dCS combo out of the window and get myself a D-211 since the amped Verdi / Elgar certainly hasn't got ten times the sound quality of the amped iPod. If it's the new iPod, I'd suggest getting one of the iRivers (H3xx) as well. Same quality, slightly more stable performance with the E888. I doubt the difference lies in the headphones we've used. After all, I'm just as able to review a $100 pair of headphones from the point of other $100 headphones as well as a $6,000 headphone pitched against other high-enders.

Fewtch, stop it!You have nothing constructive to say!

Bangraman, you need to cool it too! (although you do have something constructive to say -which is usuall - you ARE a GREAT poster on these forums)

You seem to develop this "everyone is against me" thing all of a sudden

I did not contradict you to insult you in ANY way, honest. There is no need to pick on analogies, figueres of speach, wording, etc... (You have misiterpreted my "made to be simple" car analogy as well, reread it if you care

)
10 times the SQ is a figure of speach, man! With such a non-mathematical subject as Music (or music representation) it does not matter if something is 10 times, 100 times, 2.5 times or 0.2367 times better/worse than something else! It's all ********!

Hence it was just my way of saying that D211 is in my opinion MUCh better then the contempporary DNE920. The sound is FAR more natural,FAR more transienty, FAR more "breathing", etc... by far. (imHo) Also, I am not saying that ALL vintages are better than all contemporaries (I don know anything about other players apart from the 211 and the 303... However, Duncan's biblical review was happy to give low marks to quite a few of the vintages {including the mega expensive geek cool D555}) But white is white and black is black - This particular classic Vintage D211 is clearly/opviously/emphaticaly better Music player than the modern top of the range DNE920.
Do a search on D211 and you'll find plenty of(figure of speach again haha) people who share this view on the D211 Vs modern Sony issue...

Respect, Bangraman. Peace and Happy New Year!

 

[Filburt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bangraman I think you're right there Filbert, modern PCDP's haven't had sonic issues as a priority during development... however, I would say that many are no worse than most of the classic vintages. And out of the modern DAPs which enjoy decent sound and have a stable headphone/line out, I have yet to find a classic PCDP that is superior. Fewtch, my opinions and the way I phrase it has not changed during the course of this, or any other discussion... rather, I think you've only just began to realise how much interest I've had in this area, what I've put into it and also that I've said more about it here than usual. Perhaps best not to take offence against eveyone who challenges your limited opinion as an ignoramous.

Space and power concerns have turned R/D towards utilising lower power ICs and capacitor dielectrics like tantalum. The lower power ICs, in my experience, tend not to enjoy as high fidelity relative to their older siblings, and tantalum caps are not linear, which is really not too great for audio. Tantalum caps are very small relative to their capacity, though, which I imagine is why they get used. This is, of course, my subjective assessment on the matter with respect to quality of the output. While I'm not sure I'd say something like "10 times better", I do find some of my older PCDPs to sound quite significantly better than modern PCDPs and DAPs...and I've tried _a lot_ of models. I don't know which vintage models you've sampled, though, so it's hard to conclude much about what you're saying.

 

[bangraman]

It's amazing how the lack of one smiley in a post can lead to misinterpretation isn't it. I thought I'd put a

after the 10 times crack. It's just that "so many times" description always makes me laugh. For me, the differences lie in minor percentages when you get above 'acceptable'. Rest assured I have no 'them against me' syndrome. I'm open to discussing this without the somewhat closed-in attitude of fewtch because I think it's an interesting question. My transportable source is a laptop but if I thought that a vintage PCDP fitted the role better, then I'd have kept more of them. (especially since a major source of listening while travelling is of CD's I've bought while said travelling... the laptop is used as a ripping platform as well as a listening one)


gsferrari's absolutely right in that many vintages do nothing wrong. However I also don't believe they do anything better when compared to the better examples of today's DAPs. If I should decide to get hold yet another classic of a slightly newer vintage than the 25/555, I'll think about organising a little controlled test among those who haven't necessarily heard a lot of sources. Even if it doesn't change any entrenched opinions, it might be an interesting post.

 

[Ubijza]

Sorry, i sometimes intentionally try to cut down on smileys

(How on earth did Sheakspear manage without them and still was understood haha) {When a fox tries to repeat a lions jump it ends up on the bottom of the chasm - tibetan(?) proverb}

Yeah, I would recommend D211 for HP or D303 for amping... They are THE two great Sonys anyway... Try them!