[NEWS / DISCUSSION / IMPRESSION] Phonak Audéo PFE232

[ClieOS]

Quote:

The BA drivers in the FADs use are solely manufactured for FAD in Indonesia, so it's proprietary. It's certainly a less common implementation, but the details aren't that well known in regards to their "BAM". It could just be your typical venting but the SS have proven to bring out something unique about them in their sound signature  which can be due to either of the two mentioned factors. 
 
 
The thing is, I can see these doing well with the 2 BA drivers (not complaining about them being a dual) but even if they perform I suspect we will be at J-Phonic/CK10 level of performance which still won't justify that pricing. 

The 15.5mm driver in Piano Forte II is claimed to be proprietary too, but the $80 earbuds still get beaten by Sennheiser $26 MX580. I have my reservation when it comes to the correlation between proprietary driver and performance. My last audition of SS certainly doesn't left me with any outstanding impression besides sibilant and brightness. Proprietary is in most cases, a fancy word for make-to-spec custom order. If you have cash to waste, I am sure you can custom order 'proprietary' driver from Knowles or Sonion as well. FAD said the BAM thingy has already applied for patent, I hope to see the documents when it gets approved (though Japan patents are pretty hard to search).

 

[james444]

Thanks @piotrus-g
 
@ClieOS, I agree completely on the Piano Forte II, it isn't worth half the asking price in SQ and on top of that very uncomfortable to wear. Pretty much the same can be said about their expensive 1601 model, it has some of the best mids out there, but (without EQ) nothing much else. Plus almost all of their IEMs suffer from some lack of attention to detail and usabillity, like chin slider, cable quality, L/R markings and so on.
 
In fact, I'm much less of a FAD fanboy than some may think and I couldn't care less about the BAM thing or proprietary drivers. But to my ears they have two outstanding models, the FI-BA-A1 (heaven a) and the FI-BA-SS. The A1 are one of the best sounding offerings in the $200-250 range and I prefer them (slightly) over both Ortofons. The SS are outrageously expensive for single driver universal IEMs, but they offer a uniquely raw and transparent sound signature that isn't matched by any other phone I've heard, including the JH13 and UERM demos. Speaking of which, the SS can sound (too) aggressive with some genres, but they were less sibilant when I A/Bed them to demos of the highly praised JH13 (and yes I had a good seal with both). I'm repeating myself, but if you're a classical lover and have "cash to waste", please see if you can audition them somewhere cause they're brilliant with that kind of stuff.
 
As for the PFE232, at that asking price they'd better offer something unique too, that will set them apart from the likes of CK10 and DBA, that's all I'm saying. Time will tell...

 

[Inks]

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Actually non propietary drivers make R&D cost higher.
Lets say you want to achieve some desired target spl/impedance vs frequency or even specific frequency response for woofers or tweeters
It's easier to ask a company Sonion or Knowles in this case to make a driver that behaves in a desired way.
Just remind how long it took for W3 to come out. From what I counted it was 2 years. And yes, they use completely stock drivers with street price over $300.
Or for example ADDIEM or Creative Zen - propietary drivers - sound - let's say average.
Basically propietary drivers are better to work with if you know what you want. There's no better or worse if it comes to sound quality unless there's no change in motor/diaphragm itself or your design requires propietary drivers to make your earphones sound good.
It all comes down to how is the specific driver implemented, not what driver was used.
Hope that answer your question

Never implied that proprietary drivers equal better performance in a absolute sense. I meant there's more potential because you'll be able perhaps find a way to make your certain driver perform better with better parts or find unique implementation that works and sets it apart. It will make it more in line with proprietary dynamic drivers, Sony and JVC have set themselves apart from your common drivers and have pushed the limit  by implementing unique parts and designs. Implementation potential is still there with factory drivers and this has proven to work very well but with proprietary BA drivers I'm sure there's more potential for a unique implementation of driver design that hasn't been done (EX: Yashima's MA).
 
@ClieOS once again, proprietary doesn't equal better performance in my book either but it will make the price a bit comprehensible to me. Proprietary doesn't always equal higher R&D costs either but there can instances where it will and I'll understand that coming into the cost. 

 

[piotrus-g]

In my book higher price can be only justified by better performance and better comfort (isolation and ear-friendly design). I do not care whether they've used propietary drivers or not as long as sound is better than other IEMs.
 
BTW Have you noticed that vast of universal IEM are being announced way ahead of release's date? Whilst custom IEMs are announced after company is ready to lunch.
Wonder if there will be a trend customs going cheaper and universals getting more expensive. When making a customs you don't have to take into account eye-catching designs because all customs look quite the same and detachable cords are standard.
Hope to see custom IEM prices getting lower and lower over time.

 

[goodvibes]

 
Quote:

Actually non propietary drivers make R&D cost higher.
Lets say you want to achieve some desired target spl/impedance vs frequency or even specific frequency response for woofers or tweeters
It's easier to ask a company Sonion or Knowles in this case to make a driver that behaves in a desired way.
Just remind how long it took for W3 to come out. From what I counted it was 2 years. And yes, they use completely stock drivers with street price over $300.
Or for example ADDIEM or Creative Zen - propietary drivers - sound - let's say average.
Basically propietary drivers are better to work with if you know what you want. There's no better or worse if it comes to sound quality unless there's no change in motor/diaphragm itself or your design requires propietary drivers to make your earphones sound good.
It all comes down to how is the specific driver implemented, not what driver was used.
Hope that answer your question

Great post and generally there's a selection process that involves impedance, case size, venting, armiture type etc from what are already existing bits. Impedance is easy to adjust and you're generally not dealing with material differences of diaphram or damping in BAs. Generally, these type of motors count windings. Can't talk about every case but even those costs are often mitigated and somewhat absorbed by the manufacturer, being offset with purchase guarantees.
 

 

[Inks]

 

In my book higher price can be only justified by better performance and better comfort (isolation and ear-friendly design). I do not care whether they've used propietary drivers or not as long as sound is better than other IEMs.
 
BTW Have you noticed that vast of universal IEM are being announced way ahead of release's date? Whilst custom IEMs are announced after company is ready to lunch.
Wonder if there will be a trend customs going cheaper and universals getting more expensive. When making a customs you don't have to take into account eye-catching designs because all customs look quite the same and detachable cords are standard.
Hope to see custom IEM prices getting lower and lower over time.

   Of course the higher price will be justifiable with higher performance and I'm expecting a high level of performance for these because of it. If it goes well these will likely be in company with the other universal top-tiers and that's a given, but then to justify that price it will have to really set itself apart from the other top performing dual BA IEMs imo. 

 

[piotrus-g]

Quote:

 
   Of course the higher price will be justifiable with higher performance and I'm expecting a high level of performance for these because of it. If it goes well these will likely be in company with the other universal top-tiers and that's a given, but then to justify that price it will have to really set itself apart from the other top performing dual BA IEMs imo. 

Yeah, but I simply can't believe that these will perform better than customs like Mage or Quads... but who knows

 

[dfkt]

Quote:

As for the PFE232, at that asking price they'd better offer something unique too, that will set them apart from the likes of CK10 and DBA, that's all I'm saying. Time will tell...

You heard the prototypes... same as you, I'm really interested in how the final model will sound. I hope Robin's (from Hifiheadphones UK) and my drama at the Phonak conference meeting was taken into account in final decisions.
 

 

[piotrus-g]

Quote:

You heard the prototypes... same as you, I'm really interested in how the final model will sound. I hope Robin's (from Hifiheadphones UK) and my drama at the Phonak conference meeting was taken into account in final decisions.
 

dfkt If you were to guess the price range of those prototypes you'd heard, would they be in $200-300, 300-400 or 400+ ?

 

[elektrosteve]

 
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my drama at the Phonak conference meeting

 
Tell us more.

 

[dfkt]

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dfkt If you were to guess the price range of those prototypes you'd heard, would they be in $200-300, 300-400 or 400+ ?

I really don't know. But the price stated in this thread seems a bit outrageous to me. The 232 prototypes sounded generally a bit more 'beefy' than the 112, somewhere along the lines of the e-Q5/7 or the W4... so that would be where they're at, more or less. However, seeing the price of the aforementioned FI-BA-SS, one really can't judge some price labels in a rational way.
 
Quote:

Tell us more.

 
That was a bit badly worded. Between the different crossover implementations in the test variants of the 232 we thought that Phonak should not be compromising the excellent clarity the 112 provided, and go with the clearest sounding variant, even if it was a bit closer to the old PFE sound than some of the 'fatter' sounding crossovers. Seems they took that into account.
 
 

 

[big-man]

 
Quote:

dfkt If you were to guess the price range of those prototypes you'd heard, would they be in $200-300, 300-400 or 400+ ?

 
i know for fact they are going for £399 here in the uk. i got a review set coming soon but i posted what i know so far here http://www.head-fi.org/t/568261/phonak-audeo-pfe-232-info-review-coming-soon#post_7700888
 
 

 

[ClieOS]

Quote:

i know for fact they are going for £399 here in the uk. i got a review set coming soon but i posted what i know so far here http://www.head-fi.org/t/568261/phonak-audeo-pfe-232-info-review-coming-soon#post_7700888
 

We already learned about the price tag last month (see the last few pages). I'll probably be reviewing it too, as well as a few usual suspects in the forum
 
 

 

[anadin]

I just cant get my head around that £400 price tag, where do Phonak think people have that kind of money for a pair of earphones especially in these economic times.

 

[ClieOS]

Quote:

I just cant get my head around that £400 price tag, where do Phonak think people have that kind of money for a pair of earphones especially in these economic times.

Maybe they saw the £1000 price tag on AKG K3003? J/k of course. I would imagine price would have been decided quite sometime ago as part of the R&D plan. Company don't usually develop product first then decide what price to sell. They do the other way around - set a targeted price and make something they believe they can sell at that price.