[PaganDL]

HI Gravitynaut,

Unfortunately, in regards to open back headphones, I'm not one to help you as my preference leans more closed back headphones though there are some opens or semi opens I do like but to me given my current budget, are not worth ownig but maybe one day but I digress.

Itunes & ipods are always fun, aren't they? I sympathtise with potential fear of losing your music though in most cases, if you can restore your music some other way, I would suggest getting more affordable music players if you want to go that route.
Shangling & Cowon make good players for a very decent price point & for the value, not to mention battery life for the latter, beat the mid range Astell & Kern easily.
I have experiene with all three so I can atest this but as is my main policy, always demo yourself with quality sources to see what's suitable & trust your own ears.

Please define the statement 'conflicting things about quality of that source,' just curious what you mean exactly?

Just to clarify, with the charging dock with possible line out, what are you hoping for exactly? Are there battery problems with the pod?

I repeat my earlier statement about amplification, if your source is having issues, eg quality, etc, no amplifier or even dac is going to fix this per say.

 

[herrsmith]

I repeat my earlier statement about amplification, if your source is having issues, eg quality, etc, no amplifier or even dac is going to fix this per say.

That depends on what you mean by "source." If you just mean the music files, then yeah (to a point, of course, because most people - myself included - can't tell the difference between a good mp3 and lossless). But if you mean the analog output of the device, then a DAC would completely fix that as it would entirely bypass the analog output of the device.

 

[Gravitynaut]

I have heard both good and bad things about the quality of the iPod Touch as an audio source. Both that it's "fine" and shouldn't be much of an issue to "I wouldn't wipe myself with it", haha. At any rate, I think I'll worry about the source later once can actually hear more of it.

Regarding the dock, I believe there are some which the signal is sent through the lightning cable, therefore bypassing the internal amp and making the line-in/out on the dock a better source. I may be completely mistaken, or it may not matter much anyhow. I'm mostly just trying to get a feel for the ins and out of headphones and audio before I make any huge decisions.

I don't like the 599's for the specific purpose of music. They're generally used for gaming because the imaging and soundstage were prioritized over the sound quality.

Interestingly, that's actually the first of anything negative I've heard regarding the sound quality of the 599's. Although as someone said above there's always going to be subjective preferences. I'll definitely look around more before I make a purchase, there's no rush.

 

[herrsmith]

Regarding the dock, I believe there are some which the signal is sent through the lightning cable, therefore bypassing the internal amp and making the line-in/out on the dock a better source. I may be completely mistaken, or it may not matter much anyhow. I'm mostly just trying to get a feel for the ins and out of headphones and audio before I make any huge decisions.

Any DAC does exactly this. They plug into the lightning port and generate their own analog output. You can even get devices that have both a DAC and an amp combined in one box.

Interestingly, that's actually the first of anything negative I've heard regarding the sound quality of the 599's. Although as someone said above there's always going to be subjective preferences. I'll definitely look around more before I make a purchase, there's no rush.

Some people absolutely love headphones that I would pay no amount of money to own, and I'm sure that I covet headphones that others feel the same about. It all depends on what you want out of your headphones, and discovering that takes listening to a bunch of them. If it is at all possible to find a place to demo headphones, you should absolutely do that. I've had decent luck Yelp-ing Hi-Fi stores (it's a sub-category under "Shopping," I think) and seeing if they have any headphones on their website. I don't know if Head-Fi has a directory of stores forum members like, but it might be worth trying to take a look.

 

[squee116]

I have heard both good and bad things about the quality of the iPod Touch as an audio source. Both that it's "fine" and shouldn't be much of an issue to "I wouldn't wipe myself with it", haha. At any rate, I think I'll worry about the source later once can actually hear more of it.

Regarding the dock, I believe there are some which the signal is sent through the lightning cable, therefore bypassing the internal amp and making the line-in/out on the dock a better source. I may be completely mistaken, or it may not matter much anyhow. I'm mostly just trying to get a feel for the ins and out of headphones and audio before I make any huge decisions.


Interestingly, that's actually the first of anything negative I've heard regarding the sound quality of the 599's. Although as someone said above there's always going to be subjective preferences. I'll definitely look around more before I make a purchase, there's no rush.

The 599s we're not designed to be audiophile headphones. They're designed to be unoffending and efficient. The bass is lacking and details are lacking compared to other headphones (hd6xx or he400i for example) If you want extension up and down with efficiency, you need to hop trains to the x2.

 

[herrsmith]

I'm going to have to disagree with you a little bit on that. For their price bracket, I think the HD 599 are one of the better headphones for music. Of course, it depends on what music you listen to. I tend to like stuff with "real" instruments (including a decent amount of acoustic, or mostly acoustic music), so I loved my 598 and still think it's pretty great. For more electronic music or music with more bass emphasis, they probably wouldn't be nearly as good.

The HD 6__ (including 600, 650, and 6XX) are definitely better, but they're generally in a higher price category. If you don't mind used (or hopping on the next Massdrop deal and then waiting), then absolutely I recommend them (I bought them myself). I find the 600 to be pretty much the same headphones as the 598 except better in almost literally every way (the one exception is soundstage), but they're definitely similar enough for me to say that I just can't agree with you saying one is good for music and the other isn't.

The HE400i is a bargain for the sound quality, for sure. It is a very good headphone and I really like the way they sound (they do strange things with soundstage, but I think it's a good effect). Of course, they're as cheap as they are because they're very shoddily built and break a lot. Sure, you get a full warranty for $220, but to some people it's still not worth it after having to send them back for repair multiple times. It is, of course, up to you whether to roll the dice on them. And I'm sure a lot of them are fine and don't even get close to breaking, but it sure seems like a lot more of them break than they should.

As for the X2, that's definitely something you have to want. Whereas the HD 598 is mostly neutral, the X2 has very noticeably boosted bass and treble. If you like that sort of thing, then it really is a very good headphone. It's built well, it has a huge soundstage (some people even complain that it's too big, but I'm not sure that's a huge negative), it's comfortable, and it produces very detailed sound. However, it definitely has a noticeable boost in those ranges and if you're looking for something a little more neutral, I would not recommend the X2. Plus, I'm pretty sure you'd have to go used to get these in your price range, but I'm not 100% sure on that.

It all goes back to trying them out. Having more potential options is good, and you should absolutely figure out a way to test them. Or maybe order a few from a place with a good return policy and pick which one is your favorite. This might not be easy with used headphones, but a lot of times if you buy a used headphone from a place like here, you can get back pretty much what you paid if you don't like it. Sure, it can be a bit of a hassle, but it might be worth it. The world is filled with people who have incredibly subjective opinions about headphones often with not that much basis in objective reality. Plus, we all have different tastes and ears that respond differently. So squuee116 and I could debate the relative merits of different headphones all day, but all that gives you is what we think of the headphones. That might have little relation to what you would think of the headphones. And it never gets better, either. Even top end headphones have people who wouldn't trade them for anything, and people who would not want to own them for any amount of money. It's your money and your ears, so take everything we say with at least a grain of salt.

 

[squee116]

I'm going to have to disagree with you a little bit on that. For their price bracket, I think the HD 599 are one of the better headphones for music. Of course, it depends on what music you listen to. I tend to like stuff with "real" instruments (including a decent amount of acoustic, or mostly acoustic music), so I loved my 598 and still think it's pretty great. For more electronic music or music with more bass emphasis, they probably wouldn't be nearly as good.

The HD 6__ (including 600, 650, and 6XX) are definitely better, but they're generally in a higher price category. If you don't mind used (or hopping on the next Massdrop deal and then waiting), then absolutely I recommend them (I bought them myself). I find the 600 to be pretty much the same headphones as the 598 except better in almost literally every way (the one exception is soundstage), but they're definitely similar enough for me to say that I just can't agree with you saying one is good for music and the other isn't.

The HE400i is a bargain for the sound quality, for sure. It is a very good headphone and I really like the way they sound (they do strange things with soundstage, but I think it's a good effect). Of course, they're as cheap as they are because they're very shoddily built and break a lot. Sure, you get a full warranty for $220, but to some people it's still not worth it after having to send them back for repair multiple times. It is, of course, up to you whether to roll the dice on them. And I'm sure a lot of them are fine and don't even get close to breaking, but it sure seems like a lot more of them break than they should.

As for the X2, that's definitely something you have to want. Whereas the HD 598 is mostly neutral, the X2 has very noticeably boosted bass and treble. If you like that sort of thing, then it really is a very good headphone. It's built well, it has a huge soundstage (some people even complain that it's too big, but I'm not sure that's a huge negative), it's comfortable, and it produces very detailed sound. However, it definitely has a noticeable boost in those ranges and if you're looking for something a little more neutral, I would not recommend the X2. Plus, I'm pretty sure you'd have to go used to get these in your price range, but I'm not 100% sure on that.

It all goes back to trying them out. Having more potential options is good, and you should absolutely figure out a way to test them. Or maybe order a few from a place with a good return policy and pick which one is your favorite. This might not be easy with used headphones, but a lot of times if you buy a used headphone from a place like here, you can get back pretty much what you paid if you don't like it. Sure, it can be a bit of a hassle, but it might be worth it. The world is filled with people who have incredibly subjective opinions about headphones often with not that much basis in objective reality. Plus, we all have different tastes and ears that respond differently. So squuee116 and I could debate the relative merits of different headphones all day, but all that gives you is what we think of the headphones. That might have little relation to what you would think of the headphones. And it never gets better, either. Even top end headphones have people who wouldn't trade them for anything, and people who would not want to own them for any amount of money. It's your money and your ears, so take everything we say with at least a grain of salt.

Having owned almost all of these headphones, (and hd598s instead of hd599) I have to disagree. The 599 is about 10-25 dollars less than the hd6xx. If an amp is needed, the price is at least 80 to 100 above that, admittedly. But the hd599 just doesn't have the hd6xx's ability to retrieve details (especially for classical music). The 599's are flat sounding. Not neutral (although they are that) but flat. They don't extend into the treble or the bass in the same way the others do. I understand thinking that the x2's are warmer than the hd599, but bass and treble boosted isn't fair. (could argue a bass emphasis, but it's surprisingly controlled with little to no bleed into the mids) They aren't v-shaped headphones, but they do extend better into both extremes, so it may seem that way coming from the hd599. I think if it weren't for the comfort and price difference, there'd be little need to own the hd599's over the x2.

I don't disagree about the build quality of the Hifimans, but after owning the 400i, 400s, 4xx, and re600s v2, I've had no issues. Not to say they don't exist, but they shouldn't be assumed either. And the imaging on the 400i and 400s (and he560 for that matter) were all sufficient, even for gaming. Definitely not to the hd599's levels though. Can't argue with that. But the details and extension, again, are superior.

I think for accuracy and fun's sake, any of the alternatives I've discussed are superior. The HD599's are built to meet the lowest common denominator of avoiding bright treble and bass bleeding into mids. As a result, they end up very polite, which is comfortable for long hours of listening, but not really the sound signature one looks for when they want to bang heads listening to music. That's my personal opinion after listening to them all. If polite, comfortable headphones are what you're looking for, the ATH-r70x should also be on your radar.

 

[herrsmith]

I haven't owned all of the headphones in question, but I've definitely used them all for extended periods. The 6XX is a bit of a special case due to Massdrop. And I absolutely agree that the HD 6__ series is better than the 599 pretty much across the board. And I personally did not prefer the X2 to the 598. Sure, some stuff sounded bigger, but a lot of other stuff just didn't quite sound right. I wouldn't say I'm bass shy (after all, I am a bass player), but I prefer hearing the instrument as it should sound rather than something being more heavily weighted than it should. I thought the 598 does a better job of making an instrument sound like it actually does than the X2. But, if that's not a focus, then the X2 is definitely a really good headphone. You're absolutely right that it does a warmer sound very well without really sacrificing any of the quality or detail.

The only real imaging problem I had was with the 400s, which I really didn't like (it was basically as in your face as the 600, but I didn't think it sounds nearly as good). The 400i and the 560 (which I think does everything the 400i does, but better) have great imaging. It's just that their soundstage is very odd in that everything sounds like it's coming from a very tiny band very close to you. I can pick out exactly where every sound is coming from, but it's all coming from a tiny stage very close in front of me. It's not a dealbreaker by any means, just a little different. They are pretty neutral and instruments sound like they actually do. As for build quality, it's still probably a good deal more likely than not that you'll get a pair that won't give you any problems. However, it's much more likely than I'd want and likely enough that I think it does need to be at least mentioned any time HiFiMan is recommended. You'll probably be fine, but I personally won't even consider them until they demonstrate that they can get it under control. I would generally consider myself risk averse, so that's something to take into consideration.

I'm not sure banging heads when listening to music is the universal idea of "fun." I have fun listening to music by hearing instruments sounding like they're right there with me, and that includes when I listen to all different types of metal. In fact, I think I most prefer a more neutral sound listening to metal because a lot of the recordings are already not that well produced, so adding some coloration can get you in a lot of trouble fairly quickly. However, if you just want to feel the music kick, then I agree that the 598 and 599 are absolutely not for you. If you want to hear the instruments pretty close to what they sound like in reality, though, I think the 598 and 599 are very good in that respect. They're not "fun," because I think they leave that up to the music.

But you see here is two people who seem to be looking for slightly different things out of our music reproduction. And even then, your ears might prefer one type of headphones for different kinds of listening. At least you're looking in a price range where there are a bunch of fantastic options. You probably wouldn't go wrong picking any of these, it's just that you'd probably end up preferring one of them out of the rest of them.

 

[Gravitynaut]

Heated discussion, interesting.

I can't tell just from the way things are described, but since I don't have any dedicated audio places nearby, I really only have to go off of reviews and other descriptions. I'm not really into heavy bass or treble so a more natural sound may be what I want to go for right now.

The HD 6xxs aren't that much more expensive than the 599's, but at that point a better amp than I can afford with my price range would likely be required (unless I can find a really good deal on something used, which is a bit of a gamble if I'm correct?)

So there are some lightning DACs that double as amps, but are there any with line-out support that are of quality or would be sufficient to power a HD 6xx?

 

[herrsmith]

You won't need line out support if you're directly driving the headphones with the headphone output. I personally found the Schiit Fulla (old version, too) fully able to power the HD 600 enough to make it sound better than my HD 598. It's $99 on Schiit's website, plus it has a line out if you want to use it to drive another amp, and a variable output if you want to use it for speakers or something. I believe it should work with Apple devices, but you'd need the cable. Schiit talks about how to do it here.

 

[Gravitynaut]

Quick Update:
After some looking around, I found some Sennheiser Momentums for fairly cheap used on eBay. Since I'm having trouble with money and figuring out what may be a decent amp to get, I'm considering just spending a bit of money on those (since they wouldn't require an amp), and then saving that money leftover until I'm more confident with the pair of phones and the amp I want to pair them with. (It would basically be something to hold me over and maybe use outside the house in the future since I hear the build quality and sound is decent for the price).

 

[Gravitynaut]

Would getting phones used off eBay for a lower price be a bad idea if the intention is to just be a small upgrade to help save money for something a little stronger later on (meaning in the near future)?

 

[herrsmith]

I get nearly everything used. It allows me to get better gear, and I don't lose as much value when I go to sell it later on. There's certainly more risk, but I think it should be if you're careful.

 

[Lindmo]

Hello

I don't know if you made a decision yet, but I'll give you my two cents. If I were you I would stop worrying about your iPod's DAC performance - it'll be more than adequate. If anything I would worry about double amping (that said this is more of a problem if your source -> amp 1 -> signal is already hissing or distorted before entering amp 2) . Finding a sufficient lightning to DAC/amp for high impedance headphones might be difficult. Getting a new computer in the future solves this problem as you can just use a stationary DAC/amp. You can watch this video and try to calculate whether an amp is sufficient for a certain headphone.



Regarding what headphones to choose: For stationary use, I think you are on the right track with HD-595, HD-598, HD-599 or the more expensive HD-600. One of my favorite things about their design is the huge earcups that provide very good comfort. Unlike the momentums, they will rest on your head instead of directly on top of your ears. For prolonged sessions it's the way to go, that being said they are not portable.

I think the most important decision you have to make is whether to go with one of the HD 5XX models or the HD-600. I don't want to tell you to choose the more expensive option, but I will say there is a solid difference between the two series both in sound, build quality and maybe less so in comfort. Over the years the HD-600s have dropped in price and become a very high-value option. It's also a very popular headphone for studio use, which might come in handy if you're mixing/producing music. A con is that without an amp their true potential won't show.

That being said the HD-5XX series is still a very attractive option, compared to iBuds there will be a magnitude of difference, but it might not give you that true "wow" factor. Pro for the HD 5XX is the lower price and the simplicity of your system since the amp is not required.

If you choose the HD600 route I would advise you look for a reasonable DAC/amp combo to eliminate the built in amplifier in your source, give a selection of practical inputs and outputs and provide you with more power. Keep in mind the more money you spend on a DAC/headphone amp the less value/$. Also keep in mind a lot of music production equipment can be used as a DAC or amplifier for your headphones. You should know that most DAC/amp combos have analog inputs so you could plug your iPod's headphone jack cable directly into it. If you get a computer in the future you can use the DAC through USB and you might also have optical or coax inputs.

If you want to take your music with you on the go to I would personally get a separate set of either IEMs (very practical if you find a good fit) or closed, on-ear headphones that can be driven without a portable amp. Even a small fiio amp ads bulk to your pocket and the cable setup is an annoyance.

There are headphones that can somewhat satisfy stationary and mobile listenining, like the DT-770, but from what i understand the lower ohm models like the DT-770 32 ohm don't sound as good as the higher ohm models. The DT-770 is also a popular headphone for studio use. I bought my brother the DT-770 PRO 80 ohm, and I would say that they borderline require an amp.

Whatever you choose I believe you'll be quite satisfied. Oh and for your own sake, after you make your purchase stay away from this evil site (why did i come back?!). You don't want to become this:

 

[Gravitynaut]

Thank you for the advice, it really put to rest a lot of the nervousness I had about the various smaller details with my system.

I think I've come to something of a decision, but figured I'd check back here before I go through with it.

The Sennheiser 600s aren't too costly in the long run, the issue is that an amp to power them would put me over the money I have saved up. I can always manage to wait a bit and save up more, so that's what I think I'll do.

For now, I think I'll go for a pair of Momentum 2s I found "lightly used" for fairly inexpensive on eBay. Again, I wouldn't need an amp to power them, and being closed back means that after I upgrade I could still use them on trips out of the house if need be.

Does this sound like a fair plan, or are the Momentums perhaps not the best choice for the way I intend to use them?

There is also still the eventual issue of an amp for the 600s. I have a while to figure this out, but is there any suggestions on a relatively inexpensive amp to power them (the impedance is higher than the amp I was thinking of getting for the 599s previously)?