New Hifiman Headphone HE-400 is out
Sep 19, 2012 at 8:56 PM Post #3,796 of 6,017
I had my doubts when folks started talking about "r2" but the difference between the ones I heard last weekend and the ones I purchased last spring is night and day. I've been shopping them online and getting close to pulling the trigger, but...

Now I think I am so done with HiFiMAN. I know the potential is there because the HE-400's i heard a few days ago blew me away. Unfortunately, it seems there's no guarantee that if i buy a pair they will sound the same. I'm not going to pay $400 to beta test for them.
 
Sep 19, 2012 at 10:48 PM Post #3,797 of 6,017
Hey everyone, I am a long time lurker and first time poster.  I wanted to share and get feedback on my experience with the he-400s.  To give you an idea of my experience with headphones, I own sennheiser hd 650s, hd25 1 - ii, ultrasone dj1 pro, and now the ultrasone pro 900s along with a slew of other cheaper phones and ear buds.  In the past I have owned a pair of grado sr60s so I am accustomed to the hotter treble phones as well.  I listen to headphones at work daily for up to 10 hours, and listen at very low volume levels.  For example, with Koss Portapros and an ipod classic, I listen to music with the volume turned completely down, in fact that sometimes that volume level is too loud for me and have to listen to music on my computer with volume setting at 1 notch above minimum and further restriction of the volume from my media player.  For higher resistance phones, I of course need to increase volume settings to obtain similar volume levels.
 
I love my hd 650s and was excited to hear favorable comparisons against the sound signature with the he-400s.  I decided to purchase a pair (~ 2 months ago) as I enjoy the Senn's sound.  Upon receiving my pair, I really enjoyed the he-400s sound and agreed with many others experience with more present sub base and more neutral (less recessed) highs compared to the hd 650s.  I found the he-400s sounded very good. However after a couple of days, I noticed that these cans were extremely fatiguing to my ears.  One day, after a rather long listening session of about 4-6 hours over the work day, I noticed that my ears were very fatigued with slight ringing in one ear.    I must admit, my day to day listening habits vary, I may have been listening to the he-400s at levels slightly higher then other cans at work, but I work in a low noise environment and am always cognisant of sound levels and keep them at very low sound levels at all times.  Overall in that day, I do not believe I treated the he-400s differently then any other pair of phones I have used while working.  Other listening sessions I had the similar perception that something about the presentation of the sound  of the he-400s fatigued my ears.  The only way I can describe it is like an allergy to the sound presentation.  In other words, the phones sounded good and nothing about the sound signature made me think the phones were defective.  I also do not think it has to due with the fact that the he-400s have a hotter high end (compared to the hd 650s), as I am accustomed to energetic treble phones such as grados, hd25s, and now the ultrasone pro 900s. I have 2 questions.  Is this even possible?  Is there something in the presentation of sound that may be inaudible yet fatigue the ears, or am I crazy?  Second, has anybody else had a similar experience with the cans? 
 
After my experience with these phones, I ended up purchasing the ultrasone pro 900s and although I do not consider myself a basehead, enjoy their sound presentation at low volume listening. I also find them a good complement to the hd 650s as they present a very different yet enjoyable sound signature and do not find that they fatigue my ears like the he-400s.
 
Sep 19, 2012 at 10:51 PM Post #3,799 of 6,017
Quote:
Hey everyone, I am a long time lurker and first time poster.  I wanted to share and get feedback on my experience with the he-400s.  To give you an idea of my experience with headphones, I own sennheiser hd 650s, hd25 1 - ii, ultrasone dj1 pro, and now the ultrasone pro 900s along with a slew of other cheaper phones and ear buds.  In the past I have owned a pair of grado sr60s so I am accustomed to the hotter treble phones as well.  I listen to headphones at work daily for up to 10 hours, and listen at very low volume levels.  For example, with Koss Portapros and an ipod classic, I listen to music with the volume turned completely down, in fact that sometimes that volume level is too loud for me and have to listen to music on my computer with volume setting at 1 notch above minimum and further restriction of the volume from my media player.  For higher resistance phones, I of course need to increase volume settings to obtain similar volume levels.
 
I love my hd 650s and was excited to hear favorable comparisons against the sound signature with the he-400s.  I decided to purchase a pair (~ 2 months ago) as I enjoy the Senn's sound.  Upon receiving my pair, I really enjoyed the he-400s sound and agreed with many others experience with more present sub base and more neutral (less recessed) highs compared to the hd 650s.  I found the he-400s sounded very good. However after a couple of days, I noticed that these cans were extremely fatiguing to my ears.  One day, after a rather long listening session of about 4-6 hours over the work day, I noticed that my ears were very fatigued with slight ringing in one ear.    I must admit, my day to day listening habits vary, I may have been listening to the he-400s at levels slightly higher then other cans at work, but I work in a low noise environment and am always cognisant of sound levels and keep them at very low sound levels at all times.  Overall in that day, I do not believe I treated the he-400s differently then any other pair of phones I have used while working.  Other listening sessions I had the similar perception that something about the presentation of the sound  of the he-400s fatigued my ears.  The only way I can describe it is like an allergy to the sound presentation.  In other words, the phones sounded good and nothing about the sound signature made me think the phones were defective.  I also do not think it has to due with the fact that the he-400s have a hotter high end (compared to the hd 650s), as I am accustomed to energetic treble phones such as grados, hd25s, and now the ultrasone pro 900s. I have 2 questions.  Is this even possible?  Is there something in the presentation of sound that may be inaudible yet fatigue the ears, or am I crazy?  Second, has anybody else had a similar experience with the cans? 
 
After my experience with these phones, I ended up purchasing the ultrasone pro 900s and although I do not consider myself a basehead, enjoy their sound presentation at low volume listening. I also find them a good complement to the hd 650s as they present a very different yet enjoyable sound signature and do not find that they fatigue my ears like the he-400s.

 
 
Hm..
 
The only plausible possibility I can think of is that you are sensitive to "sparkle" that HE400s have in excess - meaning the broad peak around 10~15kHz. Most headphones roll off there rather than peak up there, which is why you are ok with all your other headphones' sound signatures.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
I had my doubts when folks started talking about "r2" but the difference between the ones I heard last weekend and the ones I purchased last spring is night and day. I've been shopping them online and getting close to pulling the trigger, but...
Now I think I am so done with HiFiMAN. I know the potential is there because the HE-400's i heard a few days ago blew me away. Unfortunately, it seems there's no guarantee that if i buy a pair they will sound the same. I'm not going to pay $400 to beta test for them.
 
 
Perfectly valid point. It makes no sense that early adopters get the sh**** end of the stick, and I am too a bit rustled by the defect experiences I've had over the past few months. I'll try to bargain with the customer service to either extend my warranty for free or give me some sort of accessory compensation for this trouble but we'll see.

 
 
Sep 19, 2012 at 11:08 PM Post #3,801 of 6,017
I was using the velours. As for high frequencies, I would think that the sibilance of the hd25s or Ultrasones, or sparkle of Grados would provide a similar reaction to my ears if my reaction was due to upper frequency ranges.
 
Sep 19, 2012 at 11:26 PM Post #3,803 of 6,017
Quote:
I was using the velours. As for high frequencies, I would think that the sibilance of the hd25s or Ultrasones, or sparkle of Grados would provide a similar reaction to my ears if my reaction was due to upper frequency ranges.

 
You don't understand; none of these (HD25, Ultrasons, Grados) have a huge peak at 10kHz~15kHz. HE400s are one of the few that have that.
 
Look at the 10kHz+ regions in these FRs:
 
HE400:http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/HiFiMANHE400.pdf
Grado RS1:http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/GradoRS1.pdf
PS1000:http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/GradoPS1000.pdf
SR60i:http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/GradoSR60i.pdf
SR125i:http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/GradoSR125i.pdf
SR225i:http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/GradoSR225iComfyPads.pdf
 
 
Of course I'm only correlating this unique frequency response feature of HE400 to your blues, but it seems plausible as high frequencies tend to fatigue people sensitive to them.
 
Sep 19, 2012 at 11:47 PM Post #3,805 of 6,017
Quote:
^Hm I think you're right, jerg. Oddly enough, I don't find the HE-400 fatiguing but I did think Denon's D2000 and D5000 were a bit strident. Their graphs don't suggest that same spike in the 10KHz region, though. 
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/DenonAHD2000B2012.pdf
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/DenonAHD5000B2012.pdf

 
Most likely ringing in the treble regions then; simple 2-dimensional FR curves don't show that, you'll need CSD waterfall plots to see ringing.
 
 
 
 
 
Anyway I have an interesting hypothesis stemming from this discussion about fatigue with HE400s.
 
 
Recall how some of you including many reviewers noted how HE400s don't have a good black background during music playback, and attributed it to its wonky THD distortions in the mids?
 
 
What if the "lack of black background" is because of its immensely elevated 10-15kHz upper treble response? In other words, this excess sparkle could attribute to adding more details and noises during busy passages in music, that you tend not to hear with other headphones because they ALL lack this upper treble elevation.
 
Sep 19, 2012 at 11:51 PM Post #3,806 of 6,017
Nah usually a black background is representational of low thd and decay time.  If it were due to lots of treble information, HD800's background wouldn't be so black.  DT990 has a massive treble spike but it seems very clean as well.  Conversely its csd plot is very clean.
 
Sep 20, 2012 at 7:59 AM Post #3,807 of 6,017
Quote:
Nah usually a black background is representational of low thd and decay time.  If it were due to lots of treble information, HD800's background wouldn't be so black.  DT990 has a massive treble spike but it seems very clean as well.  Conversely its csd plot is very clean.

Yeah but do either of them have a dramatically elevated 10~15kHz though? I don't think so.
 
Also you know the HE400 decay is really fast. Other than the benign 2kHz "ortho ridge", it is extremely clean.
 
I'm just saying maybe THD is not the only contributor to "black background", the unusual treble colouration might be a part as well.
 
Sep 20, 2012 at 10:33 AM Post #3,809 of 6,017
Quote:
Yes the DT990's 10-15khz range is off the charts.

Nvm found it. Lol yeah off the charts is an understatement.
 
A/Bing the CSDs of the DT990 vs HE400s, it seems that the latter has faster overall decay in the upper mids/treble than the former, but has a few icky spots (mainly problematic below 1kHz, there is the distinctive 2kHz ortho ridge and very slight 5kHz ridges that are probably negligible).
 
Sep 20, 2012 at 1:46 PM Post #3,810 of 6,017
After about 15 hours of continuous usage / overnight burn-in, I can still confirm that the new HE400s have a more forward treble and upper midrange than my previous rev.2 pair.
 
There is a particular song which I use to judge brightness with, "Keith don't go" by Nils Lofgren on his Acoustic Live album, there is a very intense and "hot" guitar passage near the end of the song with which bright cans are almost painful; on the same listening volume, the previous HE400s were borderline tolerable, the new pair is much more aggressive and the passage does actually bite my hearing a bit.
 
 
Not sure how I feel about this...on one end maybe Hifiman is trying to retune the HE400s to be more balanced, on the other hand maybe it's detracting from what people have previously been expecting the voicing to be. I may or may not like it more in the long run, we'll see.
 

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