New from Garage1217, the solid-state Project Polaris!

[HOWIE13]

  In fact I absolutely love the HE-560 ! About end of the game to me in the headphone level... 

Before, I could listen to it on my NAD C356 BEE but we reconfigured the room, so I need a setup just for my headphones. But I still prefer to listen to the NAD, now I feel I'm missing something ! Polaris (which I love) is more detailed but have less body and I find it less enjoyable, less "natural" sounding. To my ears it sounds a little "cheap" next to the NAD. (This is because the Nad is outstanding with planars, IMO - and we are not in the same price range).
To give an idea, to my ears go from the Polaris to the Nad is roughly equivalent as if I go from magni to Polaris. A big step (and a more big step in the first case).
Long time ago I had a Lyr 1 with additional tubes and I had sold it, finding it too close to the Nad to keep it... but now...

I had a similar problem a few years ago moving from the headphone output of an Arcam integrated amplifier to using a dedicated headphone amplifier, using an HD600. The headphone amplifier initially sounded thin and lacked what I thought was richness and sounded 'clinical' in comparison.. After a while my ears accustomed to the finer detail and better dynamics of the headphone amp, but it took time, and ultimately I much preferred the latter. When I go back to the Arcam it sounds dull in comparison.
 
I'm not exactly sure why this should be the case but I don't think it's a question of power. Your NAD has a headphone output impedance of 220 Ohms. That's high for a 45 Ohm impedance can and will likely be colouring the sound in a way you have become accustomed to and obviously enjoyed.
 
The Polaris is a comparatively warm SS headphone amplifier. IMHO if you want a warmer sound you would need to explore tube amps which will allow you to experiment rolling known warm tubes to achieve the sort of sound you were hearing from your NAD headphone output socket and maybe that's why you liked your previous Lyr with additional tubes. I don't know the Lyr2 so can't comment about it but the Ember with an appropriate tube can be tweaked to sound very warm indeed.
Alternatively, you could just purchase a second NAD as they are still available-but not cheap, unfortunately, or audition another headphone, (such as the NAD Viso HP50, HD650 or HE400), to pair with your Polaris, which would probably be the cheapest option if it worked for you. You could also consider an equaliser.
 
Final thought! You can 'warm up' Polaris if you use the max output impedance setting and use the low bandwidth setting, the 'aggressive' version of Polaris giving more treble attenuation than the 'mellow' version.

 

[Tunkejazz]

Amen HOWIE13!

 

[Rudiger]

Thanx for this very good post, Howie.
I of course tried Polaris settings but it's absolutely not the same result. Well done about the impedance, good idea. Anyway I think the Nad must send a large voltage to compensate.

I agree that a tube amp should be able to get closer to the Nad. I ordered a 2 Lyr ! 

 

[HOWIE13]

  Thanx for this very good post, Howie.
I of course tried Polaris settings but it's absolutely not the same result. Well done about the impedance, good idea. Anyway I think the Nad must send a large voltage to compensate.

I agree that a tube amp should be able to get closer to the Nad. I ordered a 2 Lyr ! 

I hope the Lyr suits you. Let us know how you get on- I have the Vali 2 which is a fun, easy to use amp and I am considering the Lyr 2 at some point in the future.

 

[Tunkejazz]

I am also looking forward to hear your impressions, especially given that I have the smaller sibling of your cans

 

[Rudiger]

No problem i will give you my impressions (quick because this is a garage 1217 forum after all)

 

[Rudiger]

Hi people, I think I need help, I spent an evening to go crazy!
 
> To summarize : to go with my HE-560 and my Polaris I acquired the Bifrost 4490 last week. A very well renowned Dac. So I was very happy (expectation bias). Good sound, no ? ...But having the impression that something was not right, so I told myself it was time to change the amp (Polaris) ! Logic. So I ordered the Lyr 2 and several pairs of tubes (it should arrive within ten days).
This felt that something was wrong could not come from the Bifrost, right?
 
Ok, that was the summary ...
Now I have doubts (BUT ... ?)

> Tonight I had the bad idea to try the analog output of my loyal Dac Nad 2 to compare to my super renowed new Bifrost that smells good and give life more beautiful (and to be even more happy with my new acquisition ...).
Well... ahem... (with Polaris) I much prefer the Nad. Completely insane, isn't it ? With this one I less feel the need to change the amp ! The sound seems more rich and natural, has a 3D soundstage and there are more bass. By comparison the Bifrost seems flat and boring, with too less bass and lacking spatially details.
Either it's the Nad that is artificially flattering (that's a likely possibility) and I am not able to appreciate the good things OR the Bifrost is not so good. OR is it a mismatch, and maybe with the Lyr the Bifrost will be better than the Nad ??? I hope this. (What do you think ?) 
The problem is that I have less than a week to return the Bifrost ... if I want to try it with the Lyr 2 I take a risk.
(If you think I have more chances to get expert answers on another thread I'm interested to know).

 

[HOWIE13]

  Hi people, I think I need help, I spent an evening to go crazy!
 
> To summarize : to go with my HE-560 and my Polaris I acquired the Bifrost 4490 last week. A very well renowned Dac. So I was very happy (expectation bias). Good sound, no ? ...But having the impression that something was not right, so I told myself it was time to change the amp (Polaris) ! Logic. So I ordered the Lyr 2 and several pairs of tubes (it should arrive within ten days).
This felt that something was wrong could not come from the Bifrost, right?
 
Ok, that was the summary ...
Now I have doubts (BUT ... ?)

> Tonight I had the bad idea to try the analog output of my loyal Dac Nad 2 to compare to my super renowed new Bifrost that smells good and give life more beautiful (and to be even more happy with my new acquisition ...).
Well... ahem... (with Polaris) I much prefer the Nad. Completely insane, isn't it ? With this one I less feel the need to change the amp ! The sound seems more rich and natural, has a 3D soundstage and there are more bass. By comparison the Bifrost seems flat and boring, with too less bass and lacking spatially details.
Either it's the Nad that is artificially flattering (that's a likely possibility) and I am not able to appreciate the good things OR the Bifrost is not so good. OR is it a mismatch, and maybe with the Lyr the Bifrost will be better than the Nad ??? I hope this. (What do you think ?) 
The problem is that I have less than a week to return the Bifrost ... if I want to try it with the Lyr 2 I take a risk.
(If you think I have more chances to get expert answers on another thread I'm interested to know).

I would return the Bifrost while you can get a refund. The NAD with Polaris is providing the sort of sound Polaris is capable of and the Bifrost isn't. 
There may even be a fault with your Bifrost and you could consider purchasing another one after you have returned it if you wanted to check it out with the Polaris and the Lyr2. Timing will be important in case you want to return the Lyr2 as well.

 

[Rudiger]

Thanx Howie,
"The NAD with Polaris is providing the sort of sound Polaris is capable of and the Bifrost isn't." => yes it is exactly that. But I do not understand why.
It remains the hypothesis that this is the digital output of wireless Nad 2 that is not great.
So tonight I'll compare via USB the Modi 1 vs the Nad wireless vs the Bifrost 4490.

 

[Angular Mo]

That folks are having difficulty pairing a Bifrost with a Garage1217 amp is disturbing to me.

I own a Bifrost Multibit and have am interested in the Ember to start my Tube Journey, now I am unsure about the pairing.

I hate returning things for various reasons.

 

[bixby]

  Thanx Howie,
"The NAD with Polaris is providing the sort of sound Polaris is capable of and the Bifrost isn't." => yes it is exactly that. But I do not understand why.
It remains the hypothesis that this is the digital output of wireless Nad 2 that is not great.
So tonight I'll compare via USB the Modi 1 vs the Nad wireless vs the Bifrost 4490.

I've been following your trials with interest.  I think HOWIE13 has offered some good advice to consider.
 
I will offer my observation.  I have only heard the 4490 bifrost once with my Mad Dog headphones and a Valhalla.  It did not seem bright to me.  I own a Polaris and do feel it is rather neutral with the flat standard bandwidth setting.  I have heard the 560s on a number of setups.
 
The 560 has a treble peak which to my ears makes it less than warm sounding, rather thin to be honest.  And the owners of the 560s seem to turn to tube amps to smooth this peak often times with warm vintage tubes.  Or stuff like the Vali 2 on the low end.  But since you seem to like cans with just a slight tilt toward the treble, I really think you may also benefit from a different amp or try one of the reduced bandwidth setting on the Polaris.
 
And just a note, does the 4490 have at least 40 hours of time on it.  Many dacs do not sound best until a number of hours of burn in and also many do not sound there best if not warmed up, so if you have been turning it on and listening that could be an issue.  Leave it on for 30 minutes at least and preferably a few hours.  Frankly I think the sound differences in dacs to be a bit smaller than amps, and actually some cables can make a bigger difference than dacs.

 

[Rudiger]

@Angular Mo : I am probably the only one, and the Bifrost has no reason to be worse with the Polaris than another amp.
 
@bixby (thanx a lot for your post) & others
In fact the problem is not that the Bifrost seems bright at all (this may be the case of the Modi but very VERY slightly), it is that I find it too flat (lack of fun) and a lot of information seem too much in the background + the spacialisation is too "two dimensions".
 
It may also be that my ears are not accustomed to high-end sound (but I doubt it given the richness I perceive from the cheap wireless Nad in comparison).
 
And yes, I burn it the entire week. Not sure it makes a difference.
 
(Note: the following is light and subtle, we agree. And IMO et cetera.).
 
So I did my tests with the Polaris.

1 / coaxial digital output from the Nad to the Bifrost sounds the same or so as the PC USB to Bifrost. Phew, good point.
2 / The Bifrost 4490 is a bit better than the modi 1. More subtle, less aggressive, more soundstage. Ok, everything is normal so far. (...In other words, I like even less the Modi because he have the ""defects"" of the Bifrost + some others.)
3 / And ... definitely, analog output of this little Nad is better to my ears than the Bifrost.
 
...
...
I really wanted to love it, though.
And he would have been so smart with the Lyr 2 that I will receive soon.
 
So I just asked a return to Schiit and they accepted (very quickly, they are great with users). Apparently I still have 15 days from that date to do the return but I'll do it quickly.
 
((Aside: it will cost me dear ... about 60 $ for shipping costs to get it AND about the same thing for the return ... + 15% restocking fee on Bifrost ... AND 120 $ of import taxes to France. I hope to recover this taxes but I'm not sure... For sure I will order only on "Schiit Europe" Sonority audio now))
 
((Edit - Aside2 / morality of the story. When I see all the rave reviews of Bifrost I ask myself some serious questions. All this means that there are things that I really do not feel like some others, which critics are however very considered. (Have they compared very closely Schiit dacs with others from more mainstream brands ? I suppose.) I realize only now how only a self listening even allows you to really get an idea in this domain. And that we need to be careful about expectation bias. Yep, all of this is not very original to say, but this is the first time I fully realized it. Or of course, you could know well the person giving his opinion and know what it's worth compared to what you perceive. This may be like a compass that allows to locate in space.))
 
These audio things are (maybe) first of all a matter of personnal taste and habits.

 

[bixby]

  @Angular Mo : I am probably the only one, and the Bifrost has no reason to be worse with the Polaris than another amp.
 
@bixby (thanx a lot for your post) & others
In fact the problem is not that the Bifrost seems bright at all (this may be the case of the Modi but very VERY slightly), it is that I find it too flat (lack of fun) and a lot of information seem too much in the background + the spacialisation is too "two dimensions".
 
It may also be that my ears are not accustomed to high-end sound (but I doubt it given the richness I perceive from the cheap wireless Nad in comparison).
 
And yes, I burn it the entire week. Not sure it makes a difference.
 
(Note: the following is light and subtle, we agree. And IMO et cetera.).
 
So I did my tests with the Polaris.

1 / coaxial digital output from the Nad to the Bifrost sounds the same or so as the PC USB to Bifrost. Phew, good point.
2 / The Bifrost 4490 is a bit better than the modi 1. More subtle, less aggressive, more soundstage. Ok, everything is normal so far. (...In other words, I like even less the Modi because he have the ""defects"" of the Bifrost + some others.)
3 / And ... definitely, analog output of this little Nad is better to my ears than the Bifrost.
 
...
...
I really wanted to love it, though.
And he would have been so smart with the Lyr 2 that I will receive soon.
 
So I just asked a return to Schiit and they accepted (very quickly, they are great with users). Apparently I still have 15 days from that date to do the return but I'll do it quickly.
 
((Aside: it will cost me dear ... about 60 $ for shipping costs to get it AND about the same thing for the return ... + 15% restocking fee on Bifrost ... AND 120 $ of import taxes to France. I hope to recover this taxes but I'm not sure... For sure I will order only on "Schiit Europe" Sonority audio now))
 
((Edit - Aside2 / morality of the story. When I see all the rave reviews of Bifrost I ask myself some serious questions. All this means that there are things that I really do not feel like some others, which critics are however very considered. (Have they compared very closely Schiit dacs with others from more mainstream brands ? I suppose.) I realize only now how only a self listening even allows you to really get an idea in this domain. And that we need to be careful about expectation bias. Yep, all of this is not very original to say, but this is the first time I fully realized it. Or of course, you could know well the person giving his opinion and know what it's worth compared to what you perceive. This may be like a compass that allows to locate in space.))
 
These audio things are (maybe) first of all a matter of personnal taste and habits.

Understood!
 
WAIT a minute, $240 loss on a $400 dac?????  Why in goodness name would you send it back.  I am sure someone would pay you $400 or a bit less for it in France, no?  

 

[Rudiger]

  Understood!
 
WAIT a minute, $240 loss on a $400 dac?????  Why in goodness name would you send it back.  I am sure someone would pay you $400 or a bit less for it in France, no?  

I am not sure... Bifrost is "only" 449 € at schiit-europe for new.
I understand your view, but I find it easier to ask for a refund rather than get me started on the second hand market in Europe.

 

[CanadianMaestro]

 
> Tonight I had the bad idea to try the analog output of my loyal Dac Nad 2 to compare to my super renowed new Bifrost that smells good and give life more beautiful (and to be even more happy with my new acquisition ...).
Well... ahem... (with Polaris) I much prefer the Nad. Completely insane, isn't it ? With this one I less feel the need to change the amp !

No, it's not insane. Trust your ears. If your NAD pairs great with 560 vs. the schiit, then go with it.