[Sonic Defender]

   
 
LOL!  I agree about the UI, but disagree (somewhat) about WiFi and Bluetooth - I'd say maybe not gimmicks... more 'luxuries' which all but the (admittedly-increasing) streaming crowd can happily manage without

 
 
In other words, I don't think  WiFi and Bluetooth are 'bare minimum functionality for any DAP now'
 
Maybe you've been spoiled by Fiio's X7, iBasso's forthcoming DX200, A&K, etc.!

 

Yes, I just sold my DP-X1 as I've gone Bluetooth (headphones so my phone is fine), but I'm still convinced you can't come to the dance without WiFi and Bluetooth, you just can't. DAPs that do not have these features moving forward will have a really tough time getting attention and customers. This is the streaming age, like it, hate it, indifferent to it, but it is here. I agree that maybe for a brief time centred on the present these features may seem like luxuries, but in a year they will be the standard, they almost are now.

 

[lee730]

A good UI, WiFi and Bluetooth are not Bells and Whistles, they are bare minimum functionality for any DAP now. Those are features not gimmicks.

I beg to differ. These features can be had on a phone with a great UI and decent sound quality. It is what it is. And the general public does not contribute the bulk in sales of such botique products vs an audiophile or music enthusiest. The average consumer will just look at you crazy for spending so much on an mp3 player lol.

Now maybe implementation of streaming blue tooth has come a ways. For me in the past I've had issues with it and sound degradation.

 

[Sonic Defender]

.

Now maybe implementation of streaming blue tooth has come a ways. For me in the past I've had issues with it and sound degradation.

Yah, I suspect a great deal has changed since you last really gave WiFi/Bluetooth a try with a capable implementation. Well worth giving a try.

 

[avitron142]

  A good UI, WiFi and Bluetooth are not Bells and Whistles, they are bare minimum functionality for any DAP now. Those are features not gimmicks.

Oh really? Then what about battery life? I'm sure you'd agree that that's an essential.
 
Yet any player I know of with bluetooth and wifi can't even get past 10 hours of music playback.
 
Give me a player with 20 hours audio runtime, bluetooth and wifi, and then it becomes an essential.
 
Until then, there's nothing to talk about. If you're willing to sacrifice wifi (which is only useful for Tidal on a DAP, imo) and bluetooth, then you can enjoy the S6's 30 hours of battery life.
 
Speaking about bluetooth, and going on a tangent here, if you have a regular bluetooth headphone (not the XTZ Divine or Pendelum Stance S1+), there's zero reason to get a $600 DAP anyway - spoiled on a bluetooth headphone that usually has less-than-par SQ. I'm not sure I even know of any TOTL bluetooth headphones.

 

[Sonic Defender]

  Oh really? Then what about battery life? I'm sure you'd agree that that's an essential.
 
Yet any player I know of with bluetooth and wifi can't even get past 10 hours of music playback.
 
Give me a player with 20 hours audio runtime, bluetooth and wifi, and then it becomes an essential.
 
Until then, there's nothing to talk about. If you're willing to sacrifice wifi (which is only useful for Tidal on a DAP, imo) and bluetooth, then you can enjoy the S6's 30 hours of battery life.
 
Speaking about bluetooth, and going on a tangent here, if you have a regular bluetooth headphone (not the XTZ Divine or Pendelum Stance S1+), there's zero reason to get a $600 DAP anyway - spoiled on a bluetooth headphone that usually has less-than-par SQ. I'm not sure I even know of any TOTL bluetooth headphones.

Really, you only think WiFi is useful for Tidal? Nope, many awesome WiFi systems out there now. Sonos speakers sound very, very nice and so damn portable. Like when my lame girlfriend thought she could host a party and use her laptop and YouTube for the music. Well, no. I brought my DP-X1 streaming Tidal over WiFi to a couple of Sonos speakers and I can assure you, it was really good.
 
I agree, I sold my DP-X1 and am now as happy as a pig in **** with my LG G3 and Bluetooth headphones (Divine $179, ATH WS99BT $214. H7 $449). They all sound really good and you don't have to bet the farm on these headphones and still get stellar sound quality and please sell your DAP, you don't need it at all. Most decent/good phones have Bluetooth AptX.

 

[avitron142]

Really, you only think WiFi is useful for Tidal? Nope, many awesome WiFi systems out there now. Sonos speakers sound very, very nice and so damn portable. Like when my lame girlfriend thought she could host a party and use her laptop and YouTube for the music. Well, no. I brought my DP-X1 streaming Tidal over WiFi to a couple of Sonos speakers and I can assure you, it was really good.

I agree, I sold my DP-X1 and am now as happy as a pig in **** with my LG G3 and Bluetooth headphones (Divine $179, ATH WS99BT $214. H7 $449). They all sound really good and you don't have to bet the farm on these headphones and still get stellar sound quality and please sell your DAP, you don't need it at all. Most decent/good phones have Bluetooth AptX.

I forgot about Sonos, my bad. But most people I've met only have interest in Tidal for wifi capabilities, or at least that's what thry've tpld me.

I have a G3 as well... but mine has the dreaded hiss issue 50% of owners have. Downright annoying if you don't have a portable dac/amp.

I do find even disregarding the hiss though that the SQ just isn't good enough compared to the aune m2 and S6. Unless you have V4A, haven't tried that yet.

And bluetooth headphones are great at replacing portables. But against open-backs? The H6 didn't cone anywhere close even to the lowly K7XX I have. Not even in the same league.

I find the DAP comes most useful there. The S6 has the added benefit of being abpe to drive even high impedance cans properly, by itself. That's kinda rare.

 

[lee730]

I forgot about Sonos, my bad. But most people I've met only have interest in Tidal for wifi capabilities, or at least that's what thry've tpld me.

I have a G3 as well... but mine has the dreaded hiss issue 50% of owners have. Downright annoying if you don't have a portable dac/amp.

I do find even disregarding the hiss though that the SQ just isn't good enough compared to the aune m2 and S6. Unless you have V4A, haven't tried that yet.

And bluetooth headphones are great at replacing portables. But against open-backs? The H6 didn't cone anywhere close even to the lowly K7XX I have. Not even in the same league.

I find the DAP comes most useful there. The S6 has the added benefit of being abpe to drive even high impedance cans properly, by itself. That's kinda rare.

You hit it on the nose. Driving power and pure sound quality. Sound quality also includes headphones and IEMs that are non bluetooth. Sorry not gonna believe the technology is that advanced to surpass both wired headphones and IEMs. Talking high end at least. Otherwise an investment in a DAP like this would be overkill...

 

[Sonic Defender]

I forgot about Sonos, my bad. But most people I've met only have interest in Tidal for wifi capabilities, or at least that's what thry've tpld me.

I have a G3 as well... but mine has the dreaded hiss issue 50% of owners have. Downright annoying if you don't have a portable dac/amp.

I do find even disregarding the hiss though that the SQ just isn't good enough compared to the aune m2 and S6. Unless you have V4A, haven't tried that yet.

And bluetooth headphones are great at replacing portables. But against open-backs? The H6 didn't cone anywhere close even to the lowly K7XX I have. Not even in the same league.

I find the DAP comes most useful there. The S6 has the added benefit of being abpe to drive even high impedance cans properly, by itself. That's kinda rare.

All good points, still, Tidal is a significant and valid concern. Suddenly you can take one of the largest music libraries with you anywhere you go. The sound quality is excellent and despite what people think, in blind listening tests, they couldn't tell Tidal apart from a CD. Didn't know about the hiss issue, first I've heard about it, but I did use the headphone out once and didn't notice anything at all in terms of hiss. I simply use Bluetooth so I hear what the headphone has only (or so I believe). I also love open backs and still have my 400i, and yes I agree, typically you get a more accurate signature from an open versus closed back. However, I'm less interested these days in pure accuracy which I find bordering on boring, preferring a little bit of the fun "consumer" sound. I like well done, but nonetheless somewhat emphasized bass response, but it can't be the one note variety, it has to be reasonably tight and still allow me to hear detail and timbre.
 
The B&O H7 does just that, it is a very well done sound signature, quite close to balanced but it does have a little extra bass energy. I think we may differ somewhat in what we think a portable is for. I know many people call a small footprint portable and they wish to take it to work, or move it around the house and drive a wide variety of headphones with it. For me portable is on the bus commuting to work, or going to school, or walking through the grocery store. In that context I don't think anything beyond truly portable headphones work. I recently sold the PM3 and I'll say flat out, I think the humble Bluetooth H7 might be the better sounding of the two.
 
How much power does the S6 have? I don't recall reading that information. I consider something like 200 to 300Mw ideal for a device like a DAP if people intend to use it with various headphones. I found the DP-X1 could drive the 400i pretty darn well in balanced mode, but a little more power than the 150Mw output would have helped it.

 

[avitron142]

You hit it on the nose. Driving power and pure sound quality. Sound quality also includes headphones and IEMs that are non bluetooth. Sorry not gonna believe the technology is that advanced to surpass both wired headphones and IEMs. Talking high end at least. Otherwise an investment in a DAP like this would be overkill...

Hey, bluetooth has come a far way, I'll say that. Never been too happy with IEM's SQ in the first place (even high end), and the XTZ Divine is supposed to have sublime sound quality - compared to even wired portables. I wouldn't be surprised is bluetooth was the next IEM's, replacing all other portables. Still, open-backs will be open-backs.
 
 

  All good points, still, Tidal is a significant and valid concern. Suddenly you can take one of the largest music libraries with you anywhere you go. The sound quality is excellent and despite what people think, in blind listening tests, they couldn't tell Tidal apart from a CD. Didn't know about the hiss issue, first I've heard about it, but I did use the headphone out once and didn't notice anything at all in terms of hiss. I simply use Bluetooth so I hear what the headphone has only (or so I believe). I also love open backs and still have my 400i, and yes I agree, typically you get a more accurate signature from an open versus closed back. However, I'm less interested these days in pure accuracy which I find bordering on boring, preferring a little bit of the fun "consumer" sound. I like well done, but nonetheless somewhat emphasized bass response, but it can't be the one note variety, it has to be reasonably tight and still allow me to hear detail and timbre.
 
The B&O H7 does just that, it is a very well done sound signature, quite close to balanced but it does have a little extra bass energy. I think we may differ somewhat in what we think a portable is for. I know many people call a small footprint portable and they wish to take it to work, or move it around the house and drive a wide variety of headphones with it. For me portable is on the bus commuting to work, or going to school, or walking through the grocery store. In that context I don't think anything beyond truly portable headphones work. I recently sold the PM3 and I'll say flat out, I think the humble Bluetooth H7 might be the better sounding of the two.
 
How much power does the S6 have? I don't recall reading that information. I consider something like 200 to 300Mw ideal for a device like a DAP if people intend to use it with various headphones. I found the DP-X1 could drive the 400i pretty darn well in balanced mode, but a little more power than the 150Mw output would have helped it.

 
Well, I would've just subscribed to Tidal, but as of now, my 200gb microSD card is more than enough. practicality is something many people overlook, and for that, the bluetooth headphones come immensely in handy. But if we're talking absolute best here, I'll still have to give that to my K7XX and other open back cans.
 
If the consumer sound works for you, great! And I mean that - your wallet is going to thank you for it. But I also understand completely those who are looking at a separate DAP, for a more accurate, immense sound.
 
The S6 power specs don't look too great, flat out. It according to the specs, it should drive 300 ohm headphones only just barely. But even my power-hungry cans had zero issues with the S6, and sound fantastic. So I think the specs are a bit inaccurate, on the safe side, imo.
 
The mW rating changes depending on how many ohms you're talking about. 300mW at 65 ohms could mean 12mW at 300 ohms.
 
It should drive everything up to the HD800's though; that's what they used to test the S6.

 

[Sonic Defender]

  Hey, bluetooth has come a far way, I'll say that. Never been too happy with IEM's SQ in the first place (even high end), and the XTZ Divine is supposed to have sublime sound quality - compared to even wired portables. I wouldn't be surprised is bluetooth was the next IEM's, replacing all other portables. Still, open-backs will be open-backs.
 
 
 
Well, I would've just subscribed to Tidal, but as of now, my 200gb microSD card is more than enough. practicality is something many people overlook, and for that, the bluetooth headphones come immensely in handy. But if we're talking absolute best here, I'll still have to give that to my K7XX and other open back cans.
 
If the consumer sound works for you, great! And I mean that - your wallet is going to thank you for it. But I also understand completely those who are looking at a separate DAP, for a more accurate, immense sound.
 
 

I agree that too much music choice can be counterproductive, but having access to a wider variety than you could ever hope to own is an amazing thing. One thing I like about Tidal is that I frequently browse the what are you listening to now thread and when I see something I don't own, but want to try, I search Tidal and it always has it. That is well worth the $9.99/month price I pay.
So for discovering music and expanding your library which will always have holes worth filling, Tidal or any good streaming service is a solid investment. When I discover something I really like I often buy it.
 
The consumer sound I like really isn't that inaccurate. I think for modern music neutral headphones miss the mark. I get the whole they play things as they are recorded, but I don't think that always holds true. I like electronica quite a bit as it can be very interesting and surprisingly well recorded, but much of it assumes an elevated bass response headphone is on the other end. So an open can that tends to be bass shy (and the vast majority do sacrifice some quantity for pure quality which isn't always a fair trade if you ask me) will just be unable to actually provide the intended impact. Yes, it will provide good bass quantity, very high quality bass, but it is quite likely to lack impact and for some genres of music those extra sound cues that come from impact are equally part of the signature and if they are missing no amount of clean bass will replace it, it is just not there.
 
What I find I like about a slight bass tilt is it can provide some extra thickness to recordings that are thin which is a great deal of 70s, 80s and even a great deal of 90s masters. Currently I'm listening to some older Steely Dan and for sure on my HE 560s the bass was very accurate and full of detail, but with old bass shy recordings there was no impact to the bass. My TH 900 perhaps was a little too much bass. I like a middle ground presentation, the bass needs impact, but it can't significantly unbalance the sound, nor can it smear other frequencies, I hate that type of signature.
 
Anyway, this is a DAP thread and I will say that while my DAP experience is modest, (several iPods, A17, DP-X1, X5 borrowed) when I simply use a smartphone be it wired or Bluetooth, I don't find the differences anywhere near as large or compelling as I once assumed they were. I'm starting to learn that most basic DACs and amps are actually pretty capable and I think we convince ourselves they aren't more than the evidence suggests. I actually try now to just listen and not analyze the music and in that style of use I find the need for super amps and DAC implementations to be almost wasted effort and expense. Still, that is just where I am now in my portable audio journey.

 

[lee730]

  Hey, bluetooth has come a far way, I'll say that. Never been too happy with IEM's SQ in the first place (even high end), and the XTZ Divine is supposed to have sublime sound quality - compared to even wired portables. I wouldn't be surprised is bluetooth was the next IEM's, replacing all other portables. Still, open-backs will be open-backs.

 
Curious. What hi end IEMs have you tried out? How long were you able to use them to come to a conclusion? Where you in a noisy environment with distractions?
 
Just looked up the XTZ. Looks pretty interesting. DSP to improve sound quality.
 
Interestingly enough a fellow headfier (someone who I definitely have confidence in) compared the SE5 to an open back LCD2. He mentioned the SE5 beats it by a nice margin in sound staging & treble quality.

 

[avitron142]

   
Curious. What hi end IEMs have you tried out? How long were you able to use them to come to a conclusion? Where you in a noisy environment with distractions?
 
Just looked up the XTZ. Looks pretty interesting. DSP to improve sound quality.
 
Interestingly enough a fellow headfier (someone who I definitely have confidence in) compared the SE5 to an open back LCD2. He mentioned the SE5 beats it by a nice margin in sound staging & treble quality.

 
As a reviewer, I own/owned a number of IEM's (pretty much the whole DUNU line, including the DN-2000J, a number of Shures, Savant etc.) and auditioned a number more (JH16's and a few others) for a decent amount of time. They were pretty much all in quiet rooms with summit-fi equipment I could never afford. 
 
Have I tried many $1800 IEM's? No, not really - although I did try one or two, I forgot which ones they were, aside from the K10, which (again) really doesn't begin to compare to most open headphones I know of - even something like the HE400S. I noticed the post you mention about the LCD-2 vs SE5, and while I can't say anything regarding that specific comparison, it's pretty well-known around head-fi that IEM's and open-backs don't work together in comparisons - pretty much a taboo subject around here unfortunately. It's also important to note he was comparing the SE5 to the first version of LCD-2's; I don't know much about them but I think there have been a few much-needed revisions since. The LCD line also isn't exactly very neutral to begin with; an HD800 would be a better comparison.
 
And if I'm talking about the same post you are, we should also remember that was written 4 years ago, in 2012. Audio has come a long way since then.
 
I guess high end wasn't the right word - I'm thinking of $700 IEM's as my "high end", not $2000 ones. Still, the Savant was a joke in comparison to open-back's soundstage, presentation... pretty much everything. The DN-2000J, though fantastic for its price of an IEM, doesn't come close to even the K7XX either. It doesn't even begin to compare.
 
I'm pretty sure that's why we hear "tuning" a lot when it comes to IEM's, and almost never by high impedance open-backs. IEM's are often times 'tweaked' and 'tuned' since naturally in their small form it's nearly impossible to get a full, neutral, sound that doesn't come off as inaccurate. Most $1000-$1500 IEM's I've seen reviewed here go for the "fun" sound sig - even if that is a very coherent fun sound.
 
I have not seen a HD-800 in IEM form though - not even close. Even the new Shure electrostatic (forget the name atm) "sounds like an IEM" according to Jude.
 
I just don't get people who get something like the JH16's when something like the T90 + Aune X1S literally make a joke of it. Unless, of course, IEM's are the only option they have practically.

 

[avitron142]

I think for modern music neutral headphones miss the mark. I get the whole they play things as they are recorded, but I don't think that always holds true. I like electronica quite a bit as it can be very interesting and surprisingly well recorded, but much of it assumes an elevated bass response headphone is on the other end. So an open can that tends to be bass shy (and the vast majority do sacrifice some quantity for pure quality which isn't always a fair trade if you ask me) will just be unable to actually provide the intended impact. Yes, it will provide good bass quantity, very high quality bass, but it is quite likely to lack impact and for some genres of music those extra sound cues that come from impact are equally part of the signature and if they are missing no amount of clean bass will replace it, it is just not there.
 
What I find I like about a slight bass tilt is it can provide some extra thickness to recordings that are thin which is a great deal of 70s, 80s and even a great deal of 90s masters. Currently I'm listening to some older Steely Dan and for sure on my HE 560s the bass was very accurate and full of detail, but with old bass shy recordings there was no impact to the bass. My TH 900 perhaps was a little too much bass. I like a middle ground presentation, the bass needs impact, but it can't significantly unbalance the sound, nor can it smear other frequencies, I hate that type of signature.
 
Anyway, this is a DAP thread and I will say that while my DAP experience is modest, (several iPods, A17, DP-X1, X5 borrowed) when I simply use a smartphone be it wired or Bluetooth, I don't find the differences anywhere near as large or compelling as I once assumed they were. I'm starting to learn that most basic DACs and amps are actually pretty capable and I think we convince ourselves they aren't more than the evidence suggests. I actually try now to just listen and not analyze the music and in that style of use I find the need for super amps and DAC implementations to be almost wasted effort and expense. Still, that is just where I am now in my portable audio journey.

 
Welp, I think that's the difference between us two. I listen to modern music, sure, but I'm always with my Titan 5 when it comes to EDM or electronica music. For that, I don't care as much about sheer quality anyway.
 
Tital can be a fantastic investment. I just have too much music to go through at the moment to pay for searching more. And I don't have reliable data coverage, that probably has something to do with it too 

 
The K7XX has a great bass tilt for it's price, and I've found that a lot of the "minimum necessary bass" that people need are very much relative to what they've had before. Once I was with studio monitors for a year or two, the K7XX has plenty of bass for me, and on bass-shy recordings I don't care too much about a thumping impact anyway. Win/win 

 
Many are of the opinion that DAP's have extremely minor differences when volume matched (I'm looking at you, Brooko!) but I;ve found that certain ones jump out more than others. Volume matching the M2 and LG G3... well, there's really no contest. I turn on the M2 and hear a much more enjoyable sound with the same headphone than I would have with the smartphone. YMMV though, and it's good to realistically gauge what you're going to notice and what you're not. I know though that the Titan 5 + M2 combination, there's no way I'm going to get that jaw-dropping buttery bass again 

 Take care!
 
P.S. - still waiting on the Divine, it's apparently been out of stock for a while now, and I'm itching to review it.
 
But, since this is about the S6... how about 'em S6's?

 

[lee730]

   
As a reviewer, I own/owned a number of IEM's (pretty much the whole DUNU line, including the DN-2000J, a number of Shures, Savant etc.) and auditioned a number more (JH16's and a few others) for a decent amount of time. They were pretty much all in quiet rooms with summit-fi equipment I could never afford. 
 
Have I tried many $1800 IEM's? No, not really - although I did try one or two, I forgot which ones they were, aside from the K10, which (again) really doesn't begin to compare to most open headphones I know of - even something like the HE400S. I noticed the post you mention about the LCD-2 vs SE5, and while I can't say anything regarding that specific comparison, it's pretty well-known around head-fi that IEM's and open-backs don't work together in comparisons - pretty much a taboo subject around here unfortunately. It's also important to note he was comparing the SE5 to the first version of LCD-2's; I don't know much about them but I think there have been a few much-needed revisions since. The LCD line also isn't exactly very neutral to begin with; an HD800 would be a better comparison.
 
And if I'm talking about the same post you are, we should also remember that was written 4 years ago, in 2012. Audio has come a long way since then.
 
I guess high end wasn't the right word - I'm thinking of $700 IEM's as my "high end", not $2000 ones. Still, the Savant was a joke in comparison to open-back's soundstage, presentation... pretty much everything. The DN-2000J, though fantastic for its price of an IEM, doesn't come close to even the K7XX either. It doesn't even begin to compare.
 
I'm pretty sure that's why we hear "tuning" a lot when it comes to IEM's, and almost never by high impedance open-backs. IEM's are often times 'tweaked' and 'tuned' since naturally in their small form it's nearly impossible to get a full, neutral, sound that doesn't come off as inaccurate. Most $1000-$1500 IEM's I've seen reviewed here go for the "fun" sound sig - even if that is a very coherent fun sound.
 
I have not seen a HD-800 in IEM form though - not even close. Even the new Shure electrostatic (forget the name atm) "sounds like an IEM" according to Jude.
 
I just don't get people who get something like the JH16's when something like the T90 + Aune X1S literally make a joke of it. Unless, of course, IEM's are the only option they have practically.

 
 
 Awesome. Thank you for that explanation . Not sure if you thought I was referring to a comment from averagejoes? If so it wasn't. Though he definitely got me interested in the SE5 itself.

 

[avitron142]

   
 
 Awesome. Thank you for that explanation . Not sure if you thought I was referring to a comment from averagejoes? If so it wasn't. Though he definitely got me interested in the SE5 itself.

Ah, oh well, my bad. That whole post is just my own opinion, nothing more. If people are happy with their IEM's, that's the goal at the end of the day. It's at a point where people's satisfaction is (and should be) the main priority.