[zolkis]

Is very possible, or obvious maybe, that your concept of neutrality isn’t T+A’s concept of neutrality, and this is naturally fine because is your personal preference. I know you believe strongly in your measurements (I believe in measurements too, by the way), but we don't know your measurements equipment, how accurate your methodology is, if your graphs are compensated or not, etc. I think you're often making statements that only relating to your target curves and preferences and if anything is falling outside this, in any part of the spectrum, for you is wrong. Wrong for you, I insist, but sometimes your pronouncements don't sound just like an opinion or preference, but a statement of indisputable fact.

Compare any measurements of the ST and you will see their bass lift. It's just there. It's not my concept of neutrality. It's clearly about your personal preference, or bias, augmented with a defensive argumentation.
My measurement rig has been calibrated and shows pretty consistent results with other rigs on many well known headphones, so yes, I think they are a good indicator, besides I always mentioned I am just using measurements as a comparative tool, not as a mirror of absolute truth. I have a related EE univ. degree, have built many speakers, and I know what I am doing. It's fine to not believe me, but then also check others. When someone's subjective impressions are backed up later by measurements (like in the case of the IO-12), there is a much better chance of being closer to the truth than with just subjective arguments, no matter the level of the push. You can stop defaming right there.

 

[zolkis]

Can you please share some photos of your modded pads ? (I'am curious)

I second that, mr. @zolkis

The photos won't help you in anything. They look like the originals, and have a little more sag, sit a bit closer.
I can send you PMs with some photos.
On my head, the original pads have been pressing too much in the front, now they are much more comfortable, almost soothingly so. They also have a better seal because of the more plush (less tense) leather.

Also, can you please share some more feeling with stock IO-6 pads if possible ?

The IO-12 pads are made of real leather, the IO-6 pads use cheaper pleather. They are quite small indeed, but solve some of the problems you mentioned (and which I also perceived as problems). Also, there was a difference between the 2 samples of IO-6 pads that I tried. In the end, I won't truly recommend them, because the lesser quality ans size.

There are 2 better options:
1. Buy the 3D printed ear pads adapters plus 3rd party pads that adhere to the principles I shared earlier. I have tried a couple of 3rd party pads, but in the end I suggest that option 2 provides the best outcome, and it's also cheaper than the total price of this option.
2. Buy an extra pair of IO-12 ear pads and do what I suggested as a mod. Unfortunately it is not an easy mod, but at least it's almost completely reversible. I will not share here how to do that as most people won't do it anyway, and will reject the idea of discussing mods in a product's thread. But I will advise in PMs if someone wants to do it. Instead, I will share with Dali what I did, in hope they might incorporate some of this later, or eventually even provide an extra option of pads. I did such things with other manufacturers in the past and some of them did check out the suggestions.

 

[Rockin_Zombie]

I got those 3D printed adapters but for different reasons, planning to run my IO-6s with the XB1000 pads for comfort
Will try them with the IO-12s as well cuz why the hell not.

 

[subwoof3r]

The photos won't help you in anything. They look like the originals, and have a little more sag, sit a bit closer.
I can send you PMs with some photos.
On my head, the original pads have been pressing too much in the front, now they are much more comfortable, almost soothingly so. They also have a better seal because of the more plush (less tense) leather.



The IO-12 pads are made of real leather, the IO-6 pads use cheaper pleather. They are quite small indeed, but solve some of the problems you mentioned (and which I also perceived as problems). Also, there was a difference between the 2 samples of IO-6 pads that I tried. In the end, I won't truly recommend them, because the lesser quality ans size.

There are 2 better options:
1. Buy the 3D printed ear pads adapters plus 3rd party pads that adhere to the principles I shared earlier. I have tried a couple of 3rd party pads, but in the end I suggest that option 2 provides the best outcome, and it's also cheaper than the total price of this option.
2. Buy an extra pair of IO-12 ear pads and do what I suggested as a mod. Unfortunately it is not an easy mod, but at least it's almost completely reversible. I will not share here how to do that as most people won't do it anyway, and will reject the idea of discussing mods in a product's thread. But I will advise in PMs if someone wants to do it. Instead, I will share with Dali what I did, in hope they might incorporate some of this later, or eventually even provide an extra option of pads. I did such things with other manufacturers in the past and some of them did check out the suggestions.

Thanks, appreciated

Unfortunately I just decided to do a RMA for the IO-12... I'am sad of this decision (it wasn't easy)
My pair has almost 100 hours of proper burn-in, for sure it ameliorated nicely the sound, but not enough to justify (to me) the price of 1000 euros (but maybe more like something around 400/500), and I don't think that continue burn-in will change drastically something anymore at this state.
The SQ absolutely does not match my ATH-MSR7b (wired). This one blows the IO-12 in every aspects (and also comfort).

Some people say they've rediscovered some of their favorite music with these headphones, but for me it's just the opposite: I've lost an enormous amount of detail overall, and the bass is too invasive for me to appreciate. Midrange that deserves to be more present. Highs that lack detail.
They're OK for fun, smooth/relaxed listening, but I think I prefer analytical listening.
I didn't find this IO-12 natural and transparent, but rather colorful and fun, which I'm definitely not looking for.

I don't think there's any point in justifying myself any further. I'd rather not take the risk of buying IO-12 pads to make a mod that I'm probably going to mess up anyway. Too much risk, too much time, to really decide if I should keep this headset or not (15 days max, and I'm already 6 days in).
Thanks anyway for everything, and I wish all the fans of this IO-12 all the best for the future. Unfortunately mine will not have found the happiness it surely deserved (so I'm sad..)

Cheers'

 

[polymathic]

I kinda agree with them, Sony ruined the xm5s by focusing way too much on ANC. I have tried all the EQs in the world and nothing can fix that mess.

How would having a stronger ANC mode ruin acoustics--it could just be one extra option: ANC High. The current ANC settings are fine round the house (I usually listen ANC off), but when I'm on flight I would prefer something stronger. The ML 5909 have ANC High, Low, and Adaptive. I'd just be happy with an ANC High option.

@zolkis Have you compared measurements after your elaborate burn ins? Or after the pads modifications? Just curious. Thanks.

 

[angelom]

Compare any measurements of the ST and you will see their bass lift.

When you speaking of "any measurements of the ST", how many specifically? I only know about one person that doing measurements of the ST, and that person is a member of head-fi. In his measurements you can seeing a bass lift, yes, that only starting below 100 Hz and focusing more in low bass, like I saying already.

Maybe you must reading my post again and don't reacting so badly and reaching wrong conclusions about me defaming you. You making some comments before in this thread that are inexact and/or exaggerated. I mainly focusing in my previous post in different approaches to different target curves. The ST is have, apparently, a very similar FR graph to the expensive DCA Stealth, a wired-only headphone that many people regarding highly (but maybe not you).

My comments about your measuring equipment are valid because different equipment and methodology giving different results. Several serious people that doing measurements explaining the equipment they're using and the importance of this, this is all that I'm saying before. Jude, of head-fi, for example, speaking about this differences in doing measurements. About your pronouncements, sometimes they appearing very categorical to me personally, like if a judge is dictating a final sentence. This is my perception.

 

[musingclouds]

Is it wise to use 3.5 mm to 4.4mm adapter that came with the Dalis or is there no real benefit?

 

[musingclouds]

How would having a stronger ANC mode ruin acoustics--it could just be one extra option: ANC High. The current ANC settings are fine round the house (I usually listen ANC off), but when I'm on flight I would prefer something stronger. The ML 5909 have ANC High, Low, and Adaptive. I'd just be happy with an ANC High option.

@zolkis Have you compared measurements after your elaborate burn ins? Or after the pads modifications? Just curious. Thanks.

I mentioned this exact option to them!

 

[jthomp72]

I mentioned this exact option to them!

Having talked to someone from a similar company a while ago… The logic I got was any mode that would degrade the sound quality noticeably is a no go because they don’t trust consumers to understand the difference and to only use that mode sparingly and were worried about reviews being entirely negative because of it.

In other words the marketing department won out lol

 

[angelom]

In the last 10 days I’m comparing directly the ST and iO-12 using (until today) 146 tracks (of many genres). Irrelevant for majority of people, but this are my personal results, with what I considering better, more realistic, sound quality, the sound that I believe is more close to what I hear in real life --- ST in BT "High Quality" mode (ANC Off is the only option in this mode) vs the iO-12's BT in "Hi-Fi" setting + ANC Off)"

66 tracks --- ST preference
26 tracks --- iO-12 preference
54 tracks --- Tie (20 with small preference for ST; 15 with small preference for iO-12; 19 with no preference = complete tie for my taste)

I still think, like 3 months ago, by the way, that very, very more average people will liking the sound of the iO-12 more than the ST, and plenty of audiophiles too.

I stopping doing direct comparisons last night between the ST and the iO-12 after almost 150 tracks. Is clear, again, like I hearing initially, that I prefer the ST sound more than the iO-12 by small margin but a small margin that is often consistent. But I must mentioning again that this preference isn't big at all even when I making a note in specific tracks where either the ST or the iO-12 is very better in the reproduction of a very specific track -- but this is only happening with very, very few tracks and is happening in a similar balance between the two headphones. One thing is absolutely clear for me, even more than before: the ST and iO-12 are, without any doubts at all, the very best ANC headphones in the market today.

Now, like 3 months ago, I must spending even more sufficient time with each headphone and nothing more (without sound comparisons) and seeing if I can living with only one headphone and be sufficiently happy with my decision. Both headphones having very strong aspects that making this decision very, very difficult again for me. The incredible comfort with super quick perfect wearing position for best sound and seriously fantastic user (playback) interface are so clearly in favour of the iO-12; the still really very good comfort and, for me better, in general, sound quality, even if not a truly significant difference, plus better ANC and transparency modes performance and truly great portability are very strong aspects of the ST.

Even when I know that I will losing money with one decision or the other, of keeping one headphone or the other, I don't regretting this personal decision of doing this comparative exercise again.

The fact that the ST isn't have many, many hours of burn-in isn't relevant here for me because, like I saying already, I don't believe in burn-in and my ears are giving me very similar results that I having 3 months ago when I have a one-year-old ST and a brad new iO-12 but don't testing so many tracks in that time like I testing now. And one other thing that is even more clear than 3 months ago is that, imagining this is the first time I having the ST in my hands, is very obvious for me that the construction quality of the ST is better.

 

[polymathic]

I finally got around to listening to the IO-12 fully passively both using my MBP M2 headphone jack and my Ifi Gold Bar. They sound actually quite good with the Gold Bar, with a lush organic sound and pleasing bass! On the MBP, they are not quite as good: bass is not as good, and the sound is a more digital and fatiguing, with a narrower soundstage.

The Gold Bar's one downside compared to using DSP is that the soundstage is smaller. The DSP seems to give the IO-12 a wider soundstage, and a bit of an open-back feel.

 

[polymathic]

Is it wise to use 3.5 mm to 4.4mm adapter that came with the Dalis or is there no real benefit?

There isn't a 4.4mm adapter. It's a 6.3mm, only useful if that is the output of your amp.

 

[musingclouds]

There isn't a 4.4mm adapter. It's a 6.3mm, only useful if that is the output of your amp.

Ah! You’re right. I just assumed it was 4.4 after briefly eyeballing

 

[rael67]

Now, like 3 months ago, I must spending even more sufficient time with each headphone and nothing more (without sound comparisons) and seeing if I can living with only one headphone and be sufficiently happy with my decision. Both headphones having very strong aspects that making this decision very, very difficult again for me. The incredible comfort with super quick perfect wearing position for best sound and seriously fantastic user (playback) interface are so clearly in favour of the iO-12;

Difficult decision, that only can made by yourself. I did not test any of these two headphones but in a similar situation for me the long time comfort was an important point when deciding between headphones that were soundwise on the same level.

 

[musingclouds]

I stopping doing direct comparisons last night between the ST and the iO-12 after almost 150 tracks. Is clear, again, like I hearing initially, that I prefer the ST sound more than the iO-12 by small margin but a small margin that is often consistent. But I must mentioning again that this preference isn't big at all even when I making a note in specific tracks where either the ST or the iO-12 is very better in the reproduction of a very specific track -- but this is only happening with very, very few tracks and is happening in a similar balance between the two headphones. One thing is absolutely clear for me, even more than before: the ST and iO-12 are, without any doubts at all, the very best ANC headphones in the market today.

Now, like 3 months ago, I must spending even more sufficient time with each headphone and nothing more (without sound comparisons) and seeing if I can living with only one headphone and be sufficiently happy with my decision. Both headphones having very strong aspects that making this decision very, very difficult again for me. The incredible comfort with super quick perfect wearing position for best sound and seriously fantastic user (playback) interface are so clearly in favour of the iO-12; the still really very good comfort and, for me better, in general, sound quality, even if not a truly significant difference, plus better ANC and transparency modes performance and truly great portability are very strong aspects of the ST.

Even when I know that I will losing money with one decision or the other, of keeping one headphone or the other, I don't regretting this personal decision of doing this comparative exercise again.

The fact that the ST isn't have many, many hours of burn-in isn't relevant here for me because, like I saying already, I don't believe in burn-in and my ears are giving me very similar results that I having 3 months ago when I have a one-year-old ST and a brad new iO-12 but don't testing so many tracks in that time like I testing now. And one other thing that is even more clear than 3 months ago is that, imagining this is the first time I having the ST in my hands, is very obvious for me that the construction quality of the ST is better.

Can’t you sell your 5909s and keep both? It sounds like you really like both and can think of use cases for both. I doubt you’d regret keeping them.