New Beyerdynamic T1 (2nd Generation)

[plakat]

I generally agree with @upstateguy and feel that balanced amps are simply good at providing power to low-efficiency headphones (and, coming from electrical engineering, I do know about increased noise floor and reduced damping factor). Neither do I believe in cable sound (while there may be differences I think these can be traced back to electrical reasons, i.e. a cable and the connectors must have adequate quality). Its always good to see someone speak out to that effect, since there's high probability of snake oil alarm in that area...
 
Still I'm with @nordkapp regarding T1.2 with Beyers balanced cable... I always liked the original T1 better, but I've never heard the T1.2 sound better than with said balanced cable. I compared it on my V281, which many say sounds better on its balanced out. That I never heard, neither with the original T1, which I fitted with a XL4 connector, nor with the Master-1 or the HD800S. Still I think there was a notable difference with the T1, and I even turned deliberately down lower when trying the balanced connection. Still it seemed to have a more interesting, engaging character.
 
I have no explanation for this, and I did not try to reproduce it later on since I don't think it actually matters. Not to me at least. I still like a nice looking cable that feels good in hand and I'm willing to pay for that. Up to a certain point that is, and the Beyer cable is within this limit: I know what the parts roughly cost, I know how tedious it is to fit that sheeting nicely, so thats reasonable. Not necessary, but not a ripoff either.

 

[kdbur]

Hi, Got my T12nd gen today..................................no sound out of right driver at all.
 
Bought them from Amazon and they organized a pick up for tomorrow and delivering replacement on Saturday.....Thank the gods and goddesses for Amazon!.............they make issues like this go so smoothly and all with a few sentences via e-mail and all is sorted so quickly.
 
But back to the point. I don't know if this is an isolated issue or not, if it is then it isn't so bad I guess, though high end hand made TOTL headphones should not be leaving the factory without sound!

 

[sk3383]

  I generally agree with @upstateguy and feel that balanced amps are simply good at providing power to low-efficiency headphones (and, coming from electrical engineering, I do know about increased noise floor and reduced damping factor). Neither do I believe in cable sound (while there may be differences I think these can be traced back to electrical reasons, i.e. a cable and the connectors must have adequate quality). Its always good to see someone speak out to that effect, since there's high probability of snake oil alarm in that area...
 
Still I'm with @nordkapp regarding T1.2 with Beyers balanced cable... I always liked the original T1 better, but I've never heard the T1.2 sound better than with said balanced cable. I compared it on my V281, which many say sounds better on its balanced out. That I never heard, neither with the original T1, which I fitted with a XL4 connector, nor with the Master-1 or the HD800S. Still I think there was a notable difference with the T1, and I even turned deliberately down lower when trying the balanced connection. Still it seemed to have a more interesting, engaging character.
 
I have no explanation for this, and I did not try to reproduce it later on since I don't think it actually matters. Not to me at least. I still like a nice looking cable that feels good in hand and I'm willing to pay for that. Up to a certain point that is, and the Beyer cable is within this limit: I know what the parts roughly cost, I know how tedious it is to fit that sheeting nicely, so thats reasonable. Not necessary, but not a ripoff either.

 
In my experience, cables can and do make a difference. A rather small difference (upwards of ~ 5 - 8%)
 
However, I do not believe cables have a "sound".
 
I agree, the differences can be traced back to electrical reasons as you put it (resistance, capacitance, inductance)
 
I think cables offer varying levels of transparency based on materials, geometries, connectors, dialetrics, etc., etc.
 
People often describe these differences using audiofool terms such as bright, dark, detailed, etc., etc.
 
I don't claim to know the exact science, but my understanding is as follows...
 
As cables are "better" designed with lower resistance, capacitance and inductance they simply get out of the way, allowing for greater transparency, giving you a clearer sonic picture of what the actual headphone drivers sound like.
 
Bare in mind that the designer, voiced the headphone with the stock cables. That is the sound they were trying to achieve.
 
When switching cables you may bring about differences, not neccesarily all good. 
 
Although, when spending large amounts of money on aftermarket cables we tend to trick ourselves into believing that all the changes are for the better. 
 
Sometimes we're right though. 

 

[upstateguy]

  I generally agree with @upstateguy and feel that balanced amps are simply good at providing power to low-efficiency headphones (and, coming from electrical engineering, I do know about increased noise floor and reduced damping factor). Neither do I believe in cable sound (while there may be differences I think these can be traced back to electrical reasons, i.e. a cable and the connectors must have adequate quality). Its always good to see someone speak out to that effect, since there's high probability of snake oil alarm in that area...
 
Still I'm with @nordkapp regarding T1.2 with Beyers balanced cable... I always liked the original T1 better, but I've never heard the T1.2 sound better than with said balanced cable. I compared it on my V281, which many say sounds better on its balanced out. That I never heard, neither with the original T1, which I fitted with a XL4 connector, nor with the Master-1 or the HD800S. Still I think there was a notable difference with the T1, and I even turned deliberately down lower when trying the balanced connection. Still it seemed to have a more interesting, engaging character.
 
I have no explanation for this, and I did not try to reproduce it later on since I don't think it actually matters. Not to me at least. I still like a nice looking cable that feels good in hand and I'm willing to pay for that. Up to a certain point that is, and the Beyer cable is within this limit: I know what the parts roughly cost, I know how tedious it is to fit that sheeting nicely, so thats reasonable. Not necessary, but not a ripoff either.

 
+1 on nice looking cables..... 
 
Have you tried any other balanced cables with your T1.2s?  This is a long shot but have you tried the Beyer balanced cables with a single ended adapter?
 
Btw, how does your V281 do balanced? It wasn't clear on the Violectric site. Is it dual mono? What gain are you using?
 
 

   
In my experience, cables can and do make a difference. A rather small difference (upwards of ~ 5 - 8%)
 
However, I do not believe cables have a "sound".
 
I agree, the differences can be traced back to electrical reasons as you put it (resistance, capacitance, inductance)
 
I think cables offer varying levels of transparency based on materials, geometries, connectors, dialetrics, etc., etc.
 
People often describe these differences using audiofool terms such as bright, dark, detailed, etc., etc.
 
I don't claim to know the exact science, but my understanding is as follows...
 
As cables are "better" designed with lower resistance, capacitance and inductance they simply get out of the way, allowing for greater transparency, giving you a clearer sonic picture of what the actual headphone drivers sound like.
 
Bare in mind that the designer, voiced the headphone with the stock cables. That is the sound they were trying to achieve.
 
When switching cables you may bring about differences, not neccesarily all good. 
 
Although, when spending large amounts of money on aftermarket cables we tend to trick ourselves into believing that all the changes are for the better. 
 
Sometimes we're right though. 

 
  I don't know about you guys, but I would consider any cable that adds resistance, capacitance, inductance or alters the signal in any way, to be defective. 

 

[Peridot]

   
+1 on nice looking cables..... 
 
Have you tried any other balanced cables with your T1.2s?  This is a long shot but have you tried the Beyer balanced cables with a single ended adapter?
 
Btw, how does your V281 do balanced? It wasn't clear on the Violectric site. Is it dual mono? What gain are you using?
 
 
 
  I don't know about you guys, but I would consider any cable that adds resistance, capacitance, inductance or alters the signal in any way, to be defective. 

 
In that case, you had better throw away all of your cables because they are all defective 

 
 
Incidentally, the Beyer balanced cable is exactly the same as the Beyer single ended cable - It just has a different plug on the end.

 

[sk3383]

+1 on nice looking cables..... 

Have you tried any other balanced cables with your T1.2s?  This is a long shot but have you tried the Beyer balanced cables with a single ended adapter?

Btw, how does your V281 do balanced? It wasn't clear on the Violectric site. Is it dual mono? [COLOR=000000]What gain are you using?[/COLOR]



  I don't know about you guys, but I would consider any cable that adds [COLOR=0000FF]resistance, capacitance, inductance[/COLOR] or alters the signal in any way, to be defective. 

All cables have a measured value of resistance, capacitance and inductance.

I did state or imply earlier that generally a lower value is preferred for greater transparency, scientifically speaking.

Although, some cable manufacturers dont necessarily aim for the absolute lowest measured result.

We are lead to believe that these esoteric cables have a unique recipe filled with exotic mystical materials that make music wondefully magical.

Definitely worth a watch, funny stuff:
https://youtu.be/m7ERMu825m4

 

[upstateguy]

 

   
+1 on nice looking cables..... 
 
Have you tried any other balanced cables with your T1.2s?  This is a long shot but have you tried the Beyer balanced cables with a single ended adapter?
 
Btw, how does your V281 do balanced? It wasn't clear on the Violectric site. Is it dual mono? What gain are you using?
 
 
 
  I don't know about you guys, but I would consider any cable that adds resistance, capacitance, inductance or alters the signal in any way, to be defective. 

 
In that case, you had better throw away all of your cables because they are all defective 

 
 
Incidentally, the Beyer balanced cable is exactly the same as the Beyer single ended cable - It just has a different plug on the end.

 
I didn't know that...    I wonder if the Sennheiser balanced cable is the same as their single ended cable except for the plug???
 

 

+1 on nice looking cables..... 

Have you tried any other balanced cables with your T1.2s?  This is a long shot but have you tried the Beyer balanced cables with a single ended adapter?

Btw, how does your V281 do balanced? It wasn't clear on the Violectric site. Is it dual mono? What gain are you using?



  I don't know about you guys, but I would consider any cable that adds resistance, capacitance, inductance or alters the signal in any way, to be defective. 

All cables have a measured value of resistance, capacitance and inductance.

I did state or imply earlier that generally a lower value is preferred for greater transparency, scientifically speaking.

Although, some cable manufacturers dont necessarily aim for the absolute lowest measured result.

We are lead to believe that these esoteric cables have a unique recipe filled with exotic mystical materials that make music wondefully magical.

Definitely worth a watch, funny stuff:
https://youtu.be/m7ERMu825m4

 
I've heard him before, definitely a funny guy!  Wonder what he would say about this balanced Vs single ended discussion?

 

[nordkapp]

James Tanner of Bryston just said he prefers the sound through balanced out (I own the BHA1). But also states it depends on the efficiency of the phones. For whatever it's worth to this pointless discussion. 

 

[Synthax]

Tyll inspired my with presentation of 'the ring' in HD800s and I tried it with T1 V2. Interesting. Even more laid back presentation of T1 and even less peak at 7kHz Nice to check
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0QrsBzmVVw
 
Today I've been also listening to Orpheus 1 & 2. And HD800s. Well, I cannot say to be that dissappointed with my modded T1 as the price gap might suggest But Orpheus 1 is really nice can - no doubt. In contradiction to very very heavy and quite warm on earcaps Orpheus 2, what put a question mark on comfort level.

 

[sk3383]

I was thinking the same thing, that we are getting off topic. I'm partially at fault.
 
I don't post very often. However, I feel compelled to voice my thoughts and concerns. I am growing weary of visiting head-fi and reading about the HUGE improvements and other outrageous claims, not just from the manufacturers but mostly from the generally head-fi community that seem to be the largest contributors to selling the false propaganda.
 
When very likely what they are hearing is the result of the balanced out's higher output level and/or changes or variance in output impedance.
 
While changes in transparency can be had using different cables or balanced Topologies, these changes are very minimal. 
 
My motivation behind voicing my opinion, simply to educate the community and save people from spending obscene amounts of hard earned money trying to obtain upwards of maybe a ~1-7% change in voicing. Think it would be wiser if that money was spent on upgrading ancillary gear or better yet, more resolving headphones to begin with.
 
 
Anyways.... Getting back on track:
 
I love the sound of planars, I've owned and tested many models. That being said, with some exceptions, they are primarily heavy and uncomfortable.
 
When factoring in weight and comfort. In my opinion, I don't think there is a better "all around" headphone on the market.
 
The Beyerdynamic T1.2 is an outstanding product!!!

 

[upstateguy]

  James Tanner of Bryston just said he prefers the sound through balanced out (I own the BHA1). But also states it depends on the efficiency of the phones. For whatever it's worth to this pointless discussion. 

 
Translation:  James Tanner, VP of Sales and Marketing at Bryston says he prefers the sound through balanced out.  (OK, that carries a lot of weight, I'm totally influenced.  Take my money, please!)
 

  I was thinking the same thing, that we are getting off topic. I'm partially at fault.
 
I don't post very often. However, I feel compelled to voice my thoughts and concerns. I am growing weary of visiting head-fi and reading about the HUGE improvements and other outrageous claims, not just from the manufacturers but mostly from the generally head-fi community that seem to be the largest contributors to selling the false propaganda.
 
When very likely what they are hearing is the result of the balanced out's higher output level and/or changes or variance in output impedance.
 
While changes in transparency can be had using different cables or balanced Topologies, these changes are very minimal. 
 
My motivation behind voicing my opinion, simply to educate the community and save people from spending obscene amounts of hard earned money trying to obtain upwards of maybe a ~1-7% change in voicing. Think it would be wiser if that money was spent on upgrading ancillary gear or better yet, more resolving headphones to begin with.
 
 
Anyways.... Getting back on track:
 
I love the sound of planars, I've owned and tested many models. That being said, with some exceptions, they are primarily heavy and uncomfortable.
 
When factoring in weight and comfort. In my opinion, I don't think there is a better "all around" headphone on the market.
 
The Beyerdynamic T1.2 is an outstanding product!!!

 
"...improvements and other outrageous claims, not just from the manufacturers but mostly from the generally head-fi community that seem to be the largest contributors to selling the false propaganda.

 

[nordkapp]

@upstateguy. Tanner was talking about how his amp sounds to him through balanced out. WTH is your problem? Did mommy and daddy not pay enough attention to you as a little boy? Did all the pretty girls in school ignore you? Seems to me you like chastising people around here simply because their views clash with you radical objectivist agenda. News flash buddy-people do not answer to you.

 

[upstateguy]

@upstateguy. Tanner was talking about how his amp sounds to him through balanced out. WTH is your problem? Did mommy and daddy not pay enough attention to you as a little boy? Did all the pretty girls in school ignore you? Seems to me you like chastising people around here simply because their views clash with you radical objectivist agenda. News flash buddy-people do not answer to you.

 
 
 
Feel  free to be as nasty as you want.  When you have nothing valid to say you launch a personal attack.  Good going!!   Sticks and stones buddy.

 

[Peridot]

  ... save people from spending obscene amounts of hard earned money trying to obtain upwards of maybe a ~1-7% change in voicing. Think it would be wiser if that money was spent on upgrading ancillary gear or better yet, more resolving headphones to begin with.

 
I fully agree with your post, and in particular on the outstanding nature of these headphones 

 
The one thing I would say though is that it's not necessary to spend obscene amounts of money to experiment with balanced equipment. There are relatively good value balanced components around (just as there are obscene single-ended ones). Provided folk are not suckered into wasting money on cable "upgrades" (a few hours practice with a soldering iron can save a fortune), there's no reason why people shouldn't learn for themselves that balanced doesn't automatically mean better 

 

 

[nordkapp]

Feel  free to be as nasty as you want.  When you have nothing valid to say you launch a personal attack.  Good going!!   Sticks and stones buddy.

I reached out to Tanner for his opinion, since I own his amp. I don't think he is selling any more BHA1s now because he likes the way his amp sounds through it's bal.out. Quite certain he likes it either way, just simply PREFERS to listen to it balanced. I am sure you are a decent enough guy. But the snarky comments are tough to constantly stomach. I wasn't trying to prove anything or challenge you by stating his opinion. I now think it's simply a matter of the amplifier's SQ through the bal. circuit rather than the stupid cable anyway. Feel free to correct me now as you always do. Thanks.