New Beyerdynamic T1 (2nd Generation)

[mswlogo]

It's currently looking like the Chord Mojo is the Winner.

I received the iFi yesterday and thought for sure that was the winner. The bass boost feature was very nice (very mild boost) and had lot more power than Explorer 2. The iFi has 3 gain settings, Eco, Normal and Turbo. On Eco it was slightly less power than the Explorer 2. On Normal it had quite a bit more power than Explorer 2 and similar power to the A20. On Turbo it added like another 25%. It had the detail of the Explorer and the Bass of the A20.

iFi iDSD also could function as my USB to SPDIF/RCA for the DSP 5K's (eliminating my need for M2Tech Hiface2). Really nice package.

Ifi driver behavior was also flawless. Where when I bounced around a lot between apps and bit rates with the Explorer 2 it would occasional get wedged.

When the Mojo arrived today I almost didn't open it. How much better could it be in such a small package 1/3 the size and spec of 35 milli watts into 600 ohm. Also to top that off the slimy place I got it from had a ribbon around the box with 20% restocking fee if opened.

But I had to know and knew I would not bother ordering another without restocking fee since I was so happy with the iFi. So I opened it. I am so glad I did.

So many reviews kept saying "more musical". Well I have to agree. It is more detailed, without being bright or harsh. The bass is awesome without any boost.

The whole package is a bit odd. I really prefer a simple volume knob instead of the quirky buttons. But it sounds too good to not keep it.

The Mojo also has PLENTY of power to even drive 600 Ohm headphones. It is probably around the "Normal" range of the Ifi.

The iFi would be more Musical and engaging if I turned it up fairly loud, like some speakers. But the Mojo was engaging at modest volumes. Kind of like Meridian speakers do.

I have not listened all day yet to see if they might be fatiguing, which is sometimes the trade off you make. But so far it feels fine.

#1) Mojo ($550)
#2) ifi iDSD BL ($400 on sale at Adorama)
#3) Explorer 2 ($200)
#4) Explorer 2 with A20 amp ($350 for A20)

I could have tried every combination because they can all function as an Amp or DAC Only (Except Explorer 2 cannot act as an Amp only).

I really wanted the iFi to win because I really liked the features and package and price.

If you use headphones you MUST try a Mojo. I heard way more improvement than I strained to hear with MQA.

Chord Just announced a Hugo 2 ($2300).

No MQA on Mojo or iFi (I misspoke that iFi is getting MQA and that is not correct)

The Designer of Chord Mojo/Hugo does participate on Head-Fi.com and has some fairly technical detail of what the design does. And interesting read.

iFi also participates on Head-Fi.com but I believe it's a marketing person and is a total turn off. Blabbing about # of cores and the credentials of the developer. He then starts babbling about Ada programming language that the Developer used years ago, with Wikipedia links, so bizarre, so weird.

Anyway

Check out John Atkinson of Stereophile Review

Where his conclusion ends with

Mojo Rising

Yes, Chord's Mojo is beautifully styled. But it also produced beautiful sound quality with all four of the headphones with which I tried it. All I can say is "Wow!"

That kind of sums it up for me too. Wow.

 

[SRKRAM]

It's currently looking like the Chord Mojo is the Winner.

Thank you for the comparison, and especially for trying the Mojo. You may have just saven me some money 

 
I went to a local hi-fi shop recently to try some different DACs and amps. They sell a lot of different high-end stuff but they told me that since the Mojo came out they stopped stocking any other headphone amps or DACs because they didn't think they sounded any better than the Mojo. They do sell the Hugo, so I will give it a listen and see if it would be a worthwhile upgrade. It's a lot of money though.
 
What volume did you listen to the Mojo on? The highest I ever go is blue/blue. With my T5p gen 2's I listen at about double red or a bit higher.
 
It would be nice to know what the Mojo + A20 sound like as the Mojo arguably has the best DAC in the group, and the Beyerdynamic market the A20 for 600 ohm headphones.
 
-Mark.

 

[HOWIE13]

With all this discussion about the differences between the A20 and Mojo I've noticed the A20 has a much higher output impedance than Mojo: 100ohms vs 0.075ohms.
 
I've always found output impedances difficult to understand in relation to how loud cans will go and how suitable they would be.
 
There is a 1/8th rule which recommends that the amplifier's output impedance should be less than 1/8th of the headphone's impedance for proper damping control of the bass.
 
http://nwavguy.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/headphone-amp-impedance.html
 
I've no idea whether this 1/8th rule is generally accepted as a useful guide or is just a theoretical concept, but thought it worth mentioning, especially since the A20 and Mojo are so very different in respect of their output impedances.
 
Actually, I think the 100ohms of the A20 is higher than most amps I've read about, but I'm no expert.

 

[SRKRAM]

This question of how much power the T1s really need has been bothering me, so I asked Beyerdynamic and I got a very helpful response direct from their senior product manager. This is what he said:
 

No need to worry about the headphone impedance rising to a higher value than 600 ohms. As usual with dynamic drivers, this is in the area of the driver resonance frequency where the sensitivity is much higher, nearly compensating the impedance.
 
Due to the high sensitivity of our Tesla drivers, we recommend a min. power of 10 mW to drive the headphones properly.
 
With low impedance amp outputs, the power is highly depending on the headphone impedance (e.g. 32 ohms compared to 600 ohms). However, with 100 ohms amp outputs like A 20 and A 2, the power is nearly balanced, independent from the headphone impedance.
 
At the bottom of A 2, there is an output impedance slide switch that gives you the chance to set at 0 ohms impedance (ideal to drive T 5 p) or 100 ohms impedance (ideal for T 1).

 
My next question is about the 100 ohm output impedance of their amps like the A2 and A20, and how this affects the sound, so i'll post when I get a reply.
 
-Mark.

 

[Kramer01]

  With all this discussion about the differences between the A20 and Mojo I've noticed the A20 has a much higher output impedance than Mojo: 100ohms vs 0.075ohms.
 
I've always found output impedances difficult to understand in relation to how loud cans will go and how suitable they would be.
 
There is a 1/8th rule which recommends that the amplifier's output impedance should be less than 1/8th of the headphone's impedance for proper damping control of the bass.
 
http://nwavguy.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/headphone-amp-impedance.html
 
I've no idea whether this 1/8th rule is generally accepted as a useful guide or is just a theoretical concept, but thought it worth mentioning, especially since the A20 and Mojo are so very different in respect of their output impedances.
 
Actually, I think the 100ohms of the A20 is higher than most amps I've read about, but I'm no expert.

the 1/8th rule works for most headphones and by most headphones I mean the lower impedance 16 ohm - 50 ohm headphones since higher output impedance will negatively affects the sound(signal to noise IMHO) in some cases. This is especially true for BA driver IEMS. 
 
Here is an in depth article by @Jan Meier @Tyll Hertsens which will explain it much better than I can.
 http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/musings-headphone-amplifier-output-impedance.
 
As you can see after reading the article its "not one size fits all" approach so if beyer has made an amp with higher output impedance maybe their headphone design is better suited to the A20. Many people like tube amps with the T1 and those have high output impedance.  

 

[mswlogo]

Thank you for the comparison, and especially for trying the Mojo. You may have just saven me some money 

I went to a local hi-fi shop recently to try some different DACs and amps. They sell a lot of different high-end stuff but they told me that since the Mojo came out they stopped stocking any other headphone amps or DACs because they didn't think they sounded any better than the Mojo. They do sell the Hugo, so I will give it a listen and see if it would be a worthwhile upgrade. It's a lot of money though.

What volume did you listen to the Mojo on? The highest I ever go is blue/blue. With my T5p gen 2's I listen at about double red or a bit higher.

It would be nice to know what the Mojo + A20 sound like as the Mojo arguably has the best DAC in the group, and the Beyerdynamic market the A20 for 600 ohm headphones.

-Mark.

I'm listening in the Blue Blue range. Not sure what max is yet. Have not had it long enough. But I have gone above blue.

 

[analog'd]

waiting for my T1 G2 to arrive tomorrow. i'm really psyched!

i had the t1 when they released, but chose to keep hd800's when i found the t1 a little bass light and a little wonky at times in the treble range.
but i have missed the T1 since i sold them. always regretted it at some level. 

this week i made the move when my lcd-3s started feeling too hot for even short listens. i sold em! then i thought about modding the hd800 to approach the sound of the hd800s, but started reading great things about the T1 gen 2. so.... sold the senns.

beyers tomorrow. and Fostex 900 next week. thought i'd have the 900s first, but an order went through on a card unintentionally for the T1 (which i intended to grab later next week) and i just had to suck it up. since delivery was (is) for tomorrow, and i couldn't get credited til tuesday if i cancelled the order anyway, i'm in whole hog. that was thanks to paypal actually.

my amp is a Burson Soloist which i know should kick ass for the fostex. hoping the t1 g2 sound decent driven by it also. tried to read but so much conflicting opinions and it's clear that as always my mileage will be my mileage.

met some great people this week, one of whom is a headfier who I'm getting the Fostex from at weeks start. so despite all the aggravation from people saying one thing and doing another, and paypal and ebay being a nightmare, it's been interesting to be back on the market.   yup, the lcd3's sold on ebay. i couldn't deal with waiting any longer here. the senns went on audiogon, after thinking they were sold 6 times earlier today here i gave up and listed em there. gone in 20 minutes. paid immediately. sometimes my luck here just ain't so hot. it'd been years since i sold elsewhere though. i felt a bit guilty. but just a bit.

here's hopin'!!! it was just time for a change. dunno if they'll ever be an actual end game. i thought i'd reached it 20 years back with an RS1 and Senn HD580. then with the lcd3 and hd800. HAH!!!

 

[HOWIE13]

  the 1/8th rule works for most headphones and by most headphones I mean the lower impedance 16 ohm - 50 ohm headphones since higher output impedance will negatively affects the sound(signal to noise IMHO) in some cases. This is especially true for BA driver IEMS. 
 
Here is an in depth article by @Jan Meier @Tyll Hertsens which will explain it much better than I can.
 http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/musings-headphone-amplifier-output-impedance.
 
As you can see after reading the article its "not one size fits all" approach so if beyer has made an amp with higher output impedance maybe their headphone design is better suited to the A20. Many people like tube amps with the T1 and those have high output impedance.  

 
Thanks for the link to that article which highlights just how complex and contentious the whole subject has become.
 
I have several tube amps and the T1 is easier to drive than any of my AKG's: 612, 701,702,712. T1 is not quite as easy to drive as my Senns, HD600, 650.

 

[HOWIE13]

  This question of how much power the T1s really need has been bothering me, so I asked Beyerdynamic and I got a very helpful response direct from their senior product manager. This is what he said:
 
 
My next question is about the 100 ohm output impedance of their amps like the A2 and A20, and how this affects the sound, so i'll post when I get a reply.
 
-Mark.

Here is a link. I don't find the answer terribly convincing.
 
http://support.beyerdynamic.com/hc/en-us/articles/201847362-Why-does-the-A-20-have-an-output-impedance-of-100-ohms-

 

[Kramer01]

  Here is a link. I don't find the answer terribly convincing.
 
http://support.beyerdynamic.com/hc/en-us/articles/201847362-Why-does-the-A-20-have-an-output-impedance-of-100-ohms-

WITH THE A2(not the A20) the amplifier allows the user to switch both the gain (-4 dB, 0 dB, or +6 dB) and the output impedance (0 Ω or 100 Ω). AFAIK higher output impedance improves damping. The latter is good when trying to drive higher impedance headphones like the 600 Ω T1s as the damping factor is better optimized when using the higher output impedance option. Some people believe that high output impedance setting helps with the higher octaves and offers a more realistic experience. The treble should be better controlled and still offer the same high levels of detail while being in better proportion to the mids and bass. So in theory a100 ohm output impedance should even out the frequency response of the T1v2, especially in the upper mids/treble region, most likely due to the better damping factor of the 100 ohm output impedance of the A2 that synchronized better with the 600 ohm T1s.
 
http://north-america.beyerdynamic.com/shop/media/datenblaetter/DAT_A2_EN_.pdf
http://north-america.beyerdynamic.com/shop/media//datenblaetter/DAT_A20_EN.pdf

 

[Kramer01]

  This question of how much power the T1s really need has been bothering me, so I asked Beyerdynamic and I got a very helpful response direct from their senior product manager. This is what he said:
 
 
My next question is about the 100 ohm output impedance of their amps like the A2 and A20, and how this affects the sound, so i'll post when I get a reply.
 
-Mark.

WITH THE A2(not the A20) the amplifier allows the user to switch both the gain (-4 dB, 0 dB, or +6 dB) and the output impedance (0 Ω or 100 Ω). AFAIK higher output impedance improves damping. The latter is good when trying to drive higher impedance headphones like the 600 Ω T1s as the damping factor is better optimized when using the higher output impedance option. Some people believe that high output impedance setting helps with the higher octaves and offers a more realistic experience. The treble should be better controlled and still offer the same high levels of detail while being in better proportion to the mids and bass. So in theory a100 ohm output impedance should even out the frequency response of the T1v2, especially in the upper mids/treble region, most likely due to the better damping factor of the 100 ohm output impedance of the A2 that synchronized better with the 600 ohm T1s.
 
http://north-america.beyerdynamic.com/shop/media/datenblaetter/DAT_A2_EN_.pdf
http://north-america.beyerdynamic.com/shop/media//datenblaetter/DAT_A20_EN.pdf

 

[mswlogo]

With all this discussion about the differences between the A20 and Mojo I've noticed the A20 has a much higher output impedance than Mojo: 100ohms vs 0.075ohms.

I've always found output impedances difficult to understand in relation to how loud cans will go and how suitable they would be.

There is a 1/8th rule which recommends that the amplifier's [COLOR=070707]output impedance should be less than 1/8th of the headphone's impedance [/COLOR]for proper damping control of the bass.

http://nwavguy.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/headphone-amp-impedance.html

I've no idea whether this 1/8th rule is generally accepted as a useful guide or is just a theoretical concept, but thought it worth mentioning, especially since the A20 and Mojo are so very different in respect of their output impedances.

Actually, I think the 100ohms of the A20 is higher than most amps I've read about, but I'm no expert.

Well for me, the VERY low impedance Amp in the Mojo sounded great and the A20 (driven by Explorer 2) was way too warm. The A20 Had plenty of power (I should say enough power) and bass but lost a lot of detail/air. The microscopic low impedance amp in the Explorer 2 sounded better than the A20 but lacked power and bass. Mojo had enough power, bass and detail. So did iFi iDSD (not sure on it's impedance).

 

[HOWIE13]

  AFAIK higher output impedance improves damping. 

 
That's the opposite of what this source states:  http://nwavguy.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/headphone-amp-impedance.html :
 
           

1. 'As output impedance increases electrical damping is reduced. The bass performance of the headphones, as designed by the manufacture, may be audibly compromised if there’s insufficient damping. The bass might become more “boomy” and less controlled. The transient response becomes worse and the deep bass performance is compromised (the headphones will roll off sooner at low frequencies). A few, such as those who like a very warm “tube like” sound, might enjoy this sort of under damped bass. But it’s almost always less accurate compared to using a low impedance source.'

 
From what I'm now gleaning it would appear that generally speaking unless you can afford an expensive amplifer like an A2  that affords variable output impedance control it's probably best to chose a lower rather than higher output impedance amp and 100ohms seems relatively high. 
 
As ever, of course, our ears are the best arbiters.

 

[HOWIE13]

Well for me, the VERY low impedance Amp in the Mojo sounded great and the A20 (driven by Explorer 2) was way too warm. The A20 Had plenty of power (I should say enough power) and bass but lost a lot of detail/air. The microscopic low impedance amp in the Explorer 2 sounded better than the A20 but lacked power and bass. Mojo had enough power, bass and detail. So did iFi iDSD (not sure on it's impedance).

That's very helpful, ears are so much more useful than figures.
 
The output impedance of the iFi iDSD is also very low- quoted as less than 1ohm.

 

[adydula]

Had my T1 2G's for a month now and listeing with many amps, the Bottlehead Crack is "the" amp that works so very well with them...more than enough drive, open, transparent beautiful soundstage makes them vey musical and its a pleasure to listen to.....
 
I am thinking of a Vahalla 2 with 450mw at 600 Ohms as the next trial?
 
I have several SS amps, but the crack sounds the best to date.....just more musical and entertaining...
 
Alex