[Chopin75]

Check out NativeDSD which only has native DSD and some DXD files and it tells you what is the original format for recording

https://www.nativedsd.com/information/about-dsd

There are free downloads - I like the one with Bach cello suite and the Mozart piano sonata file under DSD test tracks. But u do need to sign up as member but it is free. But mainly has classical and jazz. I guess other genre they don’t care about DSD. Anyway should give u some idea and u can use them as test files for equipment.

 

[FredA]

Check out NativeDSD which only has native DSD and some DXD files and it tells you what is the original format for recording

https://www.nativedsd.com/information/about-dsd

There are free downloads - I like the one with Bach cello suite and the Mozart piano sonata file under DSD test tracks. But u do need to sign up as member but it is free. But mainly has classical and jazz. I guess other genre they don’t care about DSD. Anyway should give u some idea and u can use them as test files for equipment.

This site is like the church of dsd. Last thing i want to do is to become a member. I would be interested in acquiring selected classical files however eventually.

 

[Wynnytsky]

This site is like the church of dsd. Last thing i want to do is to become a member. I would be interested in acquiring selected classical files however eventually.

My PCM collection is way ahead of my DSD, but these are worth mentioning...

(for listening chair paralysis)
Stockfisch\VA - [2011] Are You Authentic (SACD).DSF
Yamina - [2013] Love Letters EP.DSF128
Hugh Masekela - [1993] Hope
JAPRS Orfeu Negro.DFF256\JAPRS Orfeu Negro.dff

(I've been really digging this lately)
Jerry Garcia & David Grisman - [1991] Garcia-Grisman (2014 MFSL SACD).ISO

(I love "Bull Rider")
Johnny Cash - [1979] Silver (2002 2ch 5.1ch SACD).ISO

(great background music for the holidays)
Vince Guaraldi - [1964, 1969] A Boy Named Charlie Brown (2004 SACD).ISO\Vince Guaraldi - A Boy Named Charlie Brown.iso

and I this this is more your speed...
Chet Baker, Art Pepper\Art Pepper - [1956, 1972] The Way It Was! (2008 MFSL SACD).ISO\Art Pepper - The Way It Was!.iso

 

[Chopin75]

Haha,though there is no harm in becoming a member, no fee or Commitment of anything. U don’t have to believe in DSD as the only true Hi Res format. U don’t need to give offerings to a DSD god, but it’s quite informative in explaining about DSD recording.no need to be member to read those. Only need to be member for those test files. Those 1970s files u listed are probably true DSD file’s from Analogue tapes and should sound really good,unless they somehow transfer to PCM first. As u may know, DSD has been used as the main format for transfer of analogue tapes directly to digital. Then it can be Switched to ,PCM for editing etc. and may sell as PCM or DSD/SACDafterwards. I got a bunch of SACD recently and all excellent and noted they are made as DXD originally but only can get download pcm stereo 24/192 . Not sure why. Think DXD is so good that transfer to DSD is still damn good, And the music can be edited immediately as DXD is pcm. DSD cannot be edited unless it is converted to pcm.
BTW, u can also make your own true DSD files using a DSD digital recorder! Either use analogue tape/vinyl as source or maybe you sing or play an instrument of choice and if playback sounds really like real life, then you can see how good DSD could be.

I am not sure where u can find non classical/jazz native DSD, but should be around somwhere, maybe in European sites?

 

[christianvogel]

@FredA I tried conversion of PCM to DSD256 through HQPlayer and then natively play that through the R2R7.

First impressions were positive. The sound seemed to move back and become more laid back. It definitely sounded different! Maybe it is the same effect you had?

However after a while it became clearer that although pleasant, it was sounding less dynamic than upsampling to 384/24 PCM. Some of the tone of the instruments also seemed lost, as well as sounding less realistic.

It needs more listening, but first impressions were that either DSD is not fantastic on this DAC, or much more likely, that the conversion processes do not do DSD justice. We also do not know how mr @Kingwa actually implemented DSD, so depending the implementation, conversion may be taking place twice: in HQPlayer PCM->DSD and then in the DAC DSD->PCM->ladder.

 

[gk2013]

@FredA I tried conversion of PCM to DSD256 through HQPlayer and then natively play that through the R2R7.

First impressions were positive. The sound seemed to move back and become more laid back. It definitely sounded different! Maybe it is the same effect you had?

However after a while it became clearer that although pleasant, it was sounding less dynamic than upsampling to 384/24 PCM. Some of the tone of the instruments also seemed lost, as well as sounding less realistic.

It needs more listening, but first impressions were that either DSD is not fantastic on this DAC, or much more likely, that the conversion processes do not do DSD justice. We also do not know how mr @Kingwa actually implemented DSD, so depending the implementation, conversion may be taking place twice: in HQPlayer PCM->DSD and then in the DAC DSD->PCM->ladder.

As far as I understood there is no DSD to PCM conversion in R2R7. The DSD signal is sent direct to the discrete ladder.

 

[FredA]

@FredA I tried conversion of PCM to DSD256 through HQPlayer and then natively play that through the R2R7.

First impressions were positive. The sound seemed to move back and become more laid back. It definitely sounded different! Maybe it is the same effect you had?

However after a while it became clearer that although pleasant, it was sounding less dynamic than upsampling to 384/24 PCM. Some of the tone of the instruments also seemed lost, as well as sounding less realistic.

It needs more listening, but first impressions were that either DSD is not fantastic on this DAC, or much more likely, that the conversion processes do not do DSD justice. We also do not know how mr @Kingwa actually implemented DSD, so depending the implementation, conversion may be taking place twice: in HQPlayer PCM->DSD and then in the DAC DSD->PCM->ladder.

That's pretty much it. I agree with all your observations, and i also assume that the delta-sigma chip makers have worked very hard to improve that conversion.

I also tend to believe your are now used to the r2r sound. The difference your are pointing are typically mentioned when comparing delta-sigma and r2r. Less so with the latest Sabre chips. Most people coming from r2r don't go to delta-sigma afterwards for the reasons you mention. Discrete r2r dacs are often mentioned as having slow and round bass however. But not the r2r 7. Kingwa has applied some trick to make the bass as good as with any dac out there.

The conversion is probably to blame. I would be very curious to try a native dsd record. Jazz, if possible. I know John Pizzarelli has his mastering done in dsd.

One thing for dsd, i really like the really black background, it's sort of addictive.

 

[FredA]

As far as I understood there is no DSD to PCM conversion in R2R7. The DSD signal is sent direct to the discrete ladder.

That is what is marketed.

 

[gk2013]

That is what is marketed.

Sure, where does the DSD to PCM take place according to you?

 

[FredA]

Sure, where does the DSD to PCM take place according to you?

I think Kingwa is a transparent person. So the dsd conversion is done on the da-7 board themselves natively. There is no conversion to pcm.

 

[christianvogel]

I think Kingwa is a transparent person. So the dsd conversion is done on the da-7 board themselves natively. There is no conversion to pcm.

The Audio-GD website is not very clear:

- PCM / DXD / DSD Native support

The term "support" is used normally by other DAC builders to sneakily indicate that they allow the format, without mentioning that it gets processed. Pure DSD is very rare (see here for example: https://translate.google.com/transl.../speelt-u-dsd-of-toch-pcm/&edit-text=&act=url).

I do believe the R2R7y supports it natively because mr @Kingwa otherwise would not specifically mention it as a feature, compared to his other DACs, where he does not mention DSD support. I agree he is a transparant person. He could be upsampling DSD to DxD, since he specifically mentions that, and then playing the DxD over the bridge (since that is multi-bit at DSD bandwidth).

 

[gk2013]

The Audio-GD website is not very clear:

- PCM / DXD / DSD Native support

The term "support" is used normally by other DAC builders to sneakily indicate that they allow the format, without mentioning that it gets processed. Pure DSD is very rare (see here for example: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=nl&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https://www.alpha-audio.nl/2015/02/speelt-u-dsd-of-toch-pcm/&edit-text=&act=url).

I do believe the R2R7y supports it natively because mr @Kingwa otherwise would not specifically mention it as a feature, compared to his other DACs, where he does not mention DSD support. I agree he is a transparant person. He could be upsampling DSD to DxD, since he specifically mentions that, and then playing the DxD over the bridge (since that is multi-bit at DSD bandwidth).

I don't see where the DSD to DxD (=PCM) conversion could take place in the R2R7 and where does Audio-GD mention this? Maybe there is some bit shifting or whatever but I really don't see evidence DSD is converted to DxD (PCM). Even the R2R11 does DSD. How would this device convert DSD to DxD (PCM)?

 

[christianvogel]

I don't see where the DSD to DxD (=PCM) conversion could take place in the R2R7 and where does Audio-GD mention this? Maybe there is some bit shifting or whatever but I really don't see evidence DSD is converted to DxD (PCM). Even the R2R11 does DSD. How would this device convert DSD to DxD (PCM)?

Hi @gk2103,

My bad for being unclear. I meant he mentions DxD support on his product page.

DxD is not really PCM, it is more of a mix of DSD and PCM. Importantly it has DSD64 and up samplerate, so it is not a reduction in data and bandwidth of 1 bit DSD.

 

[doak]

Hi @gk2103,

My bad for being unclear. I meant he mentions DxD support on his product page.

DxD is not really PCM, it is more of a mix of DSD and PCM. Importantly it has DSD64 and up samplerate, so it is not a reduction in data and bandwidth of 1 bit DSD.

Truly amazing how much misinformation has appeared in this thread - mostly regarding DSD along with some really bad guessing about how the R2R7 processes DSD.

The misinformation in the above post regarding DXD however is unprecedented with the correct information on DXD specifications but a few keystrokes away.
"DXD is a PCM signal with 24-bit resolution (8 bits more than the 16 bits used for Red Book CD) sampled at 352.8 kHz."
That's it - the truth.

 

[Wynnytsky]

That's it - the truth

you totally took the fun out of it

I was going to suggest DXD was a quantum computing version of DSD (I cracked the code when I saw the FPGA software is called Quartus Prime)
Where DSD can be a 1 or 0, DXD adds the quantum superposition of those two qubit states.
Which is why the DAC functions at it's best around 20 milikelvins (prevents significant quantum decoherence).

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