[clifwst]

That is an interesting question, is neutral scientific vs listening term?
 
A truly flat freq response, wouldn't sound neutral to me, I do not think.

 

[dagothur]

Quote:

That is an interesting question, is neutral scientific vs listening term?
 
A truly flat freq response, wouldn't sound neutral to me, I do not think.

  But that would be objectively neutral, with no spikes in any part of the spectrum.  Our perception of neutral might very well be tainted by having listened to colored instruments.  I'm pretty sure I couldn't actually identify a truly neutral headphone or speaker, and even if I could I can't imagine I would like completely neutral headphones.

 

[cifani090]

Quote:

IMO
 
Up until I got my LCD-3's I was calling the Liquid Fire a amp that all my headphones sounded the best they ever have. However after using both my very maxxed out WA5LE and my Liquid Fire with very high end tubes, so far I would agree with LFF about the LCD-3's. That said, if you are a bass junkie then you probably will like the LCD-3's.
 
Tonight I will roll in to my Liquid Fire a quad nos matched very strong set of Siemens/Rohre E88CC from 1974 and hear what happens.
On a side note. imo the Liquid Fire should be a very good amp for a bass heavy headphone, when folks first got there Liquid Fire a few said that the Liquid Fire was on the bright side, I never thought that even with the stock JJ tubes using my HE6's.

What's the reason for selling your LCD-3's than?
 

 

[Olias of Sunhillow]

Quote:

 
Because most headphones sound really bad and deviate very far from what sounds natural, much less measure smoothly. When I go out and buy a Thiel, ML, or Maggie, I know even before even I audition them, that my eardrums won't be sheared off. In general, I feel most headphones are too bright. And we are not even talking about resonance (ringing) problems either.

Would you also propose some sort of "neutral standard" for the recording industry to follow when releasing music? Because when I reach for a set of headphones with a particular deviation from what I conceive of as "neutral," it's usually to compensate for a deficiency in a specific recording.

 

[subtle]

Quote:

Wouldn't truly neutral be having a flat FR graph?

Where is that guy with 18 DT48s when you need him? 

 

[Lan647]

Come on, guys! We need some photos!!! 

 

 

[LFF]

Quote:

Would you also propose some sort of "neutral standard" for the recording industry to follow when releasing music? Because when I reach for a set of headphones with a particular deviation from what I conceive of as "neutral," it's usually to compensate for a deficiency in a specific recording.

There actually is but engineers stopped being objective sometime in the late 60's, early 70's. That standard is one of my most guarded mastering secrets.

 

[Olias of Sunhillow]

Quote:

But that would be objectively neutral, with no spikes in any part of the spectrum.  Our perception of neutral might very well be tainted by having listened to colored instruments.  I'm pretty sure I couldn't actually identify a truly neutral headphone or speaker, and even if I could I can't imagine I would like completely neutral headphones.

See MacedonianHero's post a few pages back about this point. According the Headphones.com article, the way headphones work and the proximity of the driver to your ear means that a headphone with a straight-line response across the graph wouldn't be neutral at all.
 

 

[Olias of Sunhillow]

Quote:

There actually is but engineers stopped being objective sometime in the late 60's, early 70's. That standard is one of my most guarded mastering secrets.

Maybe this explains why I like my Living Stereo SACDs so much.

 

[arnaud]

Quote:

If you will admit you prefer a measurably bright signature.

 
I'm sorry, I didn't realize that you knew more about headphone design than the folks at Headroom.

Actually, I am pretty sure it's Tyll who wrote that thing, and quite a few years back. If you were to talk to him now, I am not sure he would use the same description (I personally don't see where he got the high frequency smooth roll of from, but I agree with the need for boost of LF to compensate for lack of physical impact). I won't link the other site but you can find some discussion on headphone measurements and what's a neutral sound target.
 
 
Quote:

I do not believe that a single, identifiable, objective and universally agreed-upon standard for neutrality (measurable or otherwise) in headphone audio exists.
 
Lacking this kind of standard, all comments about neutrality, measurably dark and measurably bright signatures, and the rest are inherently preceded by a big honkin' "IMO" -- whether it's actually there or not.
 
I would love to be proven wrong.

Well, people have been using diffuse or free field or somewhere in between equalization curves for a few decades now so I am not sure you can say there is no standard for headphone. If you mean by standard a single target curve, I am sorry to say, it is the exact same problem for a loudspeaker: you could aim for a flat response in free field (1 m in front of the speaker) or diffuse field (emphasis on power output and directivity effects) or typical listening environment. Depending on the speaker maker, emphasis is placed on one or another (usually all is considered unless the maker has no clue).
 
Bottom line: I'm with Purrin in the sense that people need to stop making statements about things they're actually not clear about. LCD3 does not measure neutral and that is fine (I agree though that without a calibrated measurement rig, e.g. an equalized curved, there's nothing to judge). Its sound signature is appreciated by many. I find it very bass heavy but I don't qualify myself as a golden ear. Few people on this board have good trained hearing so all this talk about neutrality is moot point.
 

 

[decur]

Quote:

I think the Amperex BB's are 6DJ8/ ECC88, the heater voltage is higher than the E88CC's/6922/CCa. I did ask Dr. Cavalli about the ECC88 and he said not to use them.
I do have a very strong matched nos pair of Amperex E88CC (orange) that I have only tried for about 5 hours.
 

the tubes with the higher voltage are pcc88(7dj8)
6dj8s,6922 & 7308 i believe are all interchangeable
i believe the differences between the 3 above mentioned tubes are quality,with 7308 being the best,followed by 6922,and lastly 6dj8

 

[MacedonianHero]

 
Quote:

Actually, I am pretty sure it's Tyll who wrote that thing, and quite a few years back. If you were to talk to him now, I am not sure he would use the same description (I personally don't see where he got the high frequency smooth roll of from, but I agree with the need for boost of LF to compensate for lack of physical impact). I won't link the other site but you can find some discussion on headphone measurements and what's a neutral sound target.
 
 

Well, people have been using diffuse or free field or somewhere in between equalization curves for a few decades now so I am not sure you can say there is no standard for headphone. If you mean by standard a single target curve, I am sorry to say, it is the exact same problem for a loudspeaker: you could aim for a flat response in free field (1 m in front of the speaker) or diffuse field (emphasis on power output and directivity effects) or typical listening environment. Depending on the speaker maker, emphasis is placed on one or another (usually all is considered unless the maker has no clue).
 
Bottom line: I'm with Purrin in the sense that people need to stop making statements about things they're actually not clear about. LCD3 does not measure neutral and that is fine (I agree though that without a calibrated measurement rig, e.g. an equalized curved, there's nothing to judge). Its sound signature is appreciated by many. I find it very bass heavy but I don't qualify myself as a golden ear. Few people on this board have good trained hearing so all this talk about neutrality is moot point.
 

I'm pretty sure it was Tyll too. But it does go to show that everyone has their own interpretation of what a neutral FR graph looks like. Tyll's methodology is one very knowledgeable data point/method.
 
 
And we both agree that the measurements themselves can be subjective based on the measurement system's suitability.
 
 

 

[LFF]

 
Quote:

Maybe this explains why I like my Living Stereo SACDs so much.

 
EXACTLY!
 
Certain studios had mastering and recording bibles. They were usually kept hidden and not everyone could look at them. Some recording studios, like Capitol Records in Hollywood, still have the originals and they are filled with secrets and extremely useful information. Why they don't stick to those tried and tested methods beats me.
 
The RCA bible even had schematics for certain amplifiers and other custom equipment as well as post-processing steps. I feel extremely privileged knowing just some of those secrets. I wish I had copies of those bibles....the things you can do....the sound you can get....

 
I keep my own bible under lock and key.
 
 

 

[purrin]

 
Quote:

Would you also propose some sort of "neutral standard" for the recording industry to follow when releasing music? Because when I reach for a set of headphones with a particular deviation from what I conceive of as "neutral," it's usually to compensate for a deficiency in a specific recording.

 
There already is. Most audio engineers know what neutral sounds like. The EQ levers are right in front of them. The microphones they use come with FR graphs. Even off-the-shelf monitors they use come with FR graphs for left and right speakers. It's common to apply compensating adjustments of even partial decibels to make sure the monitors are totally flat. The best studios used custom monitors fully calibrated neutral.
 
If you knew anything about the industry, there's a lot corporate pressure placed upon audio engineers to tweak things a certain way, especially for popular music. Bump up the highs, bump up the bass, compress the crap of out it. Basically make it really stand out.
 
The final product is a re-interpretation of what the engineers (or the corporate bigwigs) feel like how the music should sound. If you ask them, they'll let you know what they did to it, if they are honest or forthcoming. Seriously, of lot audio engineers, even the very well known respected ones, will answer your questions via phone or e-mail. You may have to prod them a little bit because they like keeping their secrets to themselves. Sometimes you get even funny stories, like "Ahh, crap, I wish didn't put my name on that one. Corporate (or the band) forced me to do that." 
 
But yeah, they know what they are doing and there's no confusion with terminology, vocabulary, or definitions with these guys.
 
 
 
 
 

 

[LFF]

Quote:

 
 
There already is. Most audio engineers know what neutral sounds like. The EQ levers are right in front of them. The microphones they use come with FR graphs. Even off-the-shelf monitors they use come with FR graphs for left and right speakers. It's common to apply compensating adjustments of even partial decibels to make sure the monitors are totally flat. The best studios used custom monitors fully calibrated neutral.
 
If you knew anything about the industry, there's a lot corporate pressure placed upon audio engineers to tweak things a certain way, especially for popular music. Bump up the highs, bump up the bass, compress the crap of out it. Basically make it really stand out.
 
The final product is a re-interpretation of what the engineers (or the corporate bigwigs) feel like how the music should sound. If you ask them, they'll let you what they did to it, if they are honest or forthcoming. Seriously, of lot audio engineers, even the very well known respected ones, will answer your questions via phone or e-mail. You may have to prod them a little bit because they like keeping their secrets to themselves. Sometimes you get even funny stories, like "Ahh, crap, I wish didn't put my name on that one. Corporate (or the band) forced me to do that." 
 
But yeah, they know what they are doing and there's no confusion with terminology, vocabulary, or definitions with these guys.
 
 
 
 
 

Quoted for truth.
 
The pressure put on us by artists and associated personnel is quite large. You either do it well and never have it released or do it their way and get paid. 98% of the stuff I have done does not have my name on it because I would be ashamed to have my name on it due to the poor sound quality. If you stick to your guns...you don't eat. Plain and simple.
 
I wish I could have been hired full time by an audiophile company....I really wish you guys could hear what I have managed to do with many a famous album.