[ultrabike]

It seems there's been a trend since the LCD2/square wave revolution for people to think more bass/bass impact = bettar.  To me the Audeze headphones have a ton of impact but it ends up masking so much articulation.  I much prefer the bass levels and impact from the 007/009/HD800.  Actually, I think these 3 headphones and the Abyss probably have the best bass out there taking everything into account.

I agree with pretty much all of the above. Though I think some of those cans do benefit from some sort of compensation and/or amp pairing...

 

[Seamaster]

Quote:

It seems there's been a trend since the LCD2/square wave revolution for people to think more bass/bass impact = bettar.  To me the Audeze headphones have a ton of impact but it ends up masking so much articulation.  I much prefer the bass levels and impact from the 007/009/HD800.  Actually, I think these 3 headphones and the Abyss probably have the best bass out there taking everything into account.

Nicely said

 

[MacedonianHero]

Quote:

 
Well, it is all relative I guess. According to Arnaud's very own measurements, the 009 does lack bass relative to the 007:
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/498292/my-diy-electrostatic-headphones/435#post_8607847
http://www.head-fi.org/t/223263/the-stax-thread-new/21915#post_9372268
 
If you compare the FR of the HD800 to the 009 from IF:
 
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/StaxSR009SZ91278afterburnin.pdf
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD800.pdf
 
The HD800 has more energy bellow 200 Hz (bass region) relative to the rest of the spectrum vs.the 009. And the 009 30 Hz square waves don't look LCD fantastic to me.

I think you're going to have to look at those graphs again. The HD800s aren't as flat as the SR-009s (nor go as deep). Listening to the bass, there is no doubt the SR-009s come out on top over the HD800s. 
 
Comparing the SR-007MKI and SR-009s, they pretty much the same down low and fairly close to how I hear it. The SR-007MKIIs though are another story. 

 
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/StaxSR009SZ91278.pdf
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/StaxSR007.pdf
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/StaxSR007SZ31576.pdf
 
BTW, I like how you cherry picked off of Tyll's graphs and then switched to arnaud's (who's setup is no were as mature) to make your point, when Tyll's measurements above pretty much say the opposite of your comments (same amount of bass). 

 And my direct first hand A-B is pretty much in line as well.
 
With regards to the Abyss, it doesn't seem to measure as well as any of these headphones down low. 

 

[arnaud]

BTW, I like how you cherry picked off of Tyll's graphs and then switched to arnaud's (who's setup is no were as mature) to make your point, when Tyll's measurements above pretty much say the opposite of your comments (same amount of bass). 

Well, it's apples and oranges really. Or fine coffee and old socks brew to be more to the point .

1. I can't control the seal very well (a flat baffle typically requires to apply pressure to the cushions to make a good seal and this isn't ideal) and the response below 100hz is heavily influenced by it. You can see it in the variance between tests (headphone reseated each time).

2. I use a dirt cheap electret mic (emc8000) non calibrated so all bets are off below 30Hz or so (except maybe comparing two phones on the same rig).

3. Your links to IF data show it all: the effect of the port is much visible on the Omega 2, not so much for my tests, which is likely a seal issue, or possibly the amplifier (my lowly 727 vs the BHSE)

 

[MacedonianHero]

Well, it's apples and oranges really. Or fine coffee and old socks brew to be more to the point .

1. I can't control the seal very well (a flat baffle typically requires to apply pressure to the cushions to make a good seal and this isn't ideal) and the response below 100hz is heavily influenced by it. You can see it in the variance between tests (headphone reseated each time).

2. I use a dirt cheap electret mic (emc8000) non calibrated so all bets are off below 30Hz or so (except maybe comparing two phones on the same rig).

3. Your links to IF data show it all: the effect of the port is much visible on the Omega 2, not so much for my tests, which is likely a seal issue, or possibly the amplifier (my lowly 727 vs the BHSE)

Too funny.

 

[ultrabike]

Quote:

I think you're going to have to look at those graphs again. The HD800s aren't as flat as the SR-009s (nor go as deep). Listening to the bass, there is no doubt the SR-009s come out on top over the HD800s. 
 
Comparing the SR-007MKI and SR-009s, they pretty much the same down low and fairly close to how I hear it. The SR-007MKIIs though are another story. 

 
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/StaxSR009SZ91278.pdf
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/StaxSR007.pdf
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/StaxSR007SZ31576.pdf
 
BTW, I like how you cherry picked off of Tyll's graphs and then switched to arnaud's (who's setup is no were as mature) to make your point, when Tyll's measurements above pretty much say the opposite of your comments (same amount of bass). 

 And my direct first hand A-B is pretty much in line as well.
 
With regards to the Abyss, it doesn't seem to measure as well as any of these headphones down low. 

 
Well, I really wanted to use Arnaud's measurements only, but he didn't seem to have HD800 measurements. Since Arnaud did have measurements for both the 007 and 009, the relative comparisons apply for those two IMO.
 
For the HD800 vs 009 I used Tyll's measurements since those are directly comparable.
 
As far as the 3 measurements links from Innerfidelity in your post, lets define sub-bass from 0 to 60 Hz, and bass from 60 to 300 Hz (http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm). In all cases, the FR measurements you linked show that the 009 has less bass than the 007, but more sub-bass extension.
 
Regarding the Abyss measurements from IF, they do have smoother and more bass energy than both the 009 and 007 down to 30 Hz. The distortion number in the bass region also seem pretty good... pretty close at 90 dB SPL.
 

Well, it's apples and oranges really. Or fine coffee and old socks brew to be more to the point 

.

1. I can't control the seal very well (a flat baffle typically requires to apply pressure to the cushions to make a good seal and this isn't ideal) and the response below 100hz is heavily influenced by it. You can see it in the variance between tests (headphone reseated each time).

2. I use a dirt cheap electret mic (emc8000) non calibrated so all bets are off below 30Hz or so (except maybe comparing two phones on the same rig).

3. Your links to IF data show it all: the effect of the port is much visible on the Omega 2, not so much for my tests, which is likely a seal issue, or possibly the amplifier (my lowly 727 vs the BHSE)

 
I wouldn't say your measurements are old socks brew. They may or may not be the most accurate in the absolute sense (not necessarily because of the mic, but maybe/maybe not because of the plate you are using, among other things... perhaps... dunno), but I think relative measurement comparisons from your rig still hold valid... It's a good effort! 

 
The relative bass response between your 007 and 009 from your rig still hold IMO.
 
Hopefully you'll get a chance to take listen to the Abyss, and form an opinion about them. They are probably a negative fashion statement, but they do sound good.

 

[arnaud]

Well, I really wanted to use Arnaud's measurements only, but he didn't seem to have HD800 measurements. Since Arnaud did have measurements for both the 007 and 009, the relative comparisons apply for those two IMO.

Bad timing on my part. I did the numerical simulation of HD800 over xmas break 2009 and would have made good use of the test rig at the time but only went to measurement well after the numerical modeling.

I wouldn't say your measurements are old socks brew. They may or may not be the most accurate in the absolute sense (not necessarily because of the mic, but maybe/maybe not because of the plate you are using, among other things... perhaps... dunno), but I think relative measurement comparisons from your rig still hold valid... It's a good effort! 

The relative bass response between your 007 and 009 from your rig still hold IMO.

Hopefully you'll get a chance to take listen to the Abyss, and form an opinion about them. They are probably a negative fashion statement, but they do sound good.

No worries, and yes, I hope to hear the abyss at some point...

 

[purrin]

Chill, the whole "limp bizkit" was just to rile a few guys up. The exact two guys I had in mind... 

 
Point was that the Abyss' bass was not only reasonably accurate and clean, but also balls, especially when things started to hang low.

 

[arnaud]

Chill, the whole "limp bizkit" was just to rile a few guys up. The exact two guys I had in mind... 

Point was that the Abyss' bass was not only reasonably accurate and clean, but also balls, especially when things started to hang low.

I guess when posts make a mountain out of mole hill to get a point to come accross, you get reactions. Feels like a deja-vu and am glad you cleared that out .

 

[MacedonianHero]

Quote:

 
Well, I really wanted to use Arnaud's measurements only, but he didn't seem to have HD800 measurements. Since Arnaud did have measurements for both the 007 and 009, the relative comparisons apply for those two IMO.
 
For the HD800 vs 009 I used Tyll's measurements since those are directly comparable.
 
As far as the 3 measurements links from Innerfidelity in your post, lets define sub-bass from 0 to 60 Hz, and bass from 60 to 300 Hz (http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm). In all cases, the FR measurements you linked show that the 009 has less bass than the 007, but more sub-bass extension.
 
Regarding the Abyss measurements from IF, they do have smoother and more bass energy than both the 009 and 007 down to 30 Hz. The distortion number in the bass region also seem pretty good... pretty close at 90 dB SPL.
 
 
I wouldn't say your measurements are old socks brew. They may or may not be the most accurate in the absolute sense (not necessarily because of the mic, but maybe/maybe not because of the plate you are using, among other things... perhaps... dunno), but I think relative measurement comparisons from your rig still hold valid... It's a good effort! 

 
The relative bass response between your 007 and 009 from your rig still hold IMO.
 
Hopefully you'll get a chance to take listen to the Abyss, and form an opinion about them. They are probably a negative fashion statement, but they do sound good.

 
Sorry, my first hand experiences just don't agree 

 (and neither do Tyll's measurements of the 009 and 007MKI, the MKIIs are certainly not in the mix here). I'm looking at them again as I write this and no differences that I can see of any merit, so differences might only be due to upstream dac/amp/source. Let's not talk about the Abyss's distortion in the low bass. 

 That said, I hope to hear them soon.

 

[citadel]

Quote:

Point was that the Abyss' bass was not only reasonably accurate and clean, but also balls, especially when things started to hang low.

Agreed!

 

[ultrabike]

Quote:

 
Sorry, my first hand experiences just don't agree 

 (and neither do Tyll's measurements of the 009 and 007MKI, the MKIIs are certainly not in the mix here). I'm looking at them again as I write this and no differences that I can see of any merit, so differences might only be due to upstream dac/amp/source. Let's not talk about the Abyss's distortion in the low bass. 

 That said, I hope to hear them soon.

 
I know this may be out of topic, and I apologize for that. However, since the 009 and 007 is being used in relative terms to describe the sound of the Abyss, this might be useful...
 
Below are the overlaid left channel FR measurements from the 009 and 007 using Tyll/Innerfidelity data (hopefully Tyll doesn't mind). The two are normalized so that the FR are matched at 1 kHz.
 
MH, while not the same set from the link you provided, the responses IMO seem match closely to those.
 

 
Seems to me the 007 has more bass than the 009 in this set of measurements. The 007 does have a steeper drop in the bass to sub-bass transition though.
 
Here is another view using similar scaling than Arnaud:
 
 

 
 
Now, regarding the Abyss distortion in the sub-bass region. According to Innerfidelity, it is ~1% at 20 Hz @ 90 dB/SPL, and below that throughout the sub-bass and bass region... and so is the 009. Pretty close IMO, so not sure what you mean. the Abyss does have more distortion in the mids and highs relative to the 009 though.
 
Innerfidelity linky to Abyss measurements:
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/JPSLabsAbyssAB1266.pdf

 

[athenaesword]

Absolutely it does...and this is coming from a proud LCD-3 owner. It's got more "quantity" than the HD800s or T1s and anymore would not be neutral. Have a look at both the frequency response (basically flat down to 10Hz) and fantastic 30Hz square wave responses. The CSD plot is tight and with very low distortion. To my ears and on my rig (though I am expecting an improvement when my KGSSHV arrives) this is the best bass I've heard yet from headphones.

I too agree that the sr009 has more than enough bass. And i was an owner of the lcd3 for almost a year before i sold it to get the stax. When i first got it though i was disappointed with the bass and so found myself dropping bass oriented music. Then i got my mytek 192 and some nice cables and right now its all there and more. I do not miss my lcd3's bass anymore.

 

[citadel]

Quote:

I too agree that the sr009 has more than enough bass. And i was an owner of the lcd3 for almost a year before i sold it to get the stax. When i first got it though i was disappointed with the bass and so found myself dropping bass oriented music. Then i got my mytek 192 and some nice cables and right now its all there and more. I do not miss my lcd3's bass anymore.

From the many impression of other head-fiers, I'm almost certain that the LCD 3 would have more bass with a 'similar' setup.

 

[athenaesword]

From the many impression of other head-fiers, I'm almost certain that the LCD 3 would have more bass with a 'similar' setup.

There are not many headfiers who have tried a full setup for both, if for no other reason than finances. It takes about 12k to build a full 009 rig. Meet impressions are discounted imo because it takes weeks to get accustomed to a rig's sound and get over the initial allure of a new sound. Rigs that sounds exciting and engaging can sound fatiguing over time. Strong bass can sound bloated over time. There is no similar setup for lcd3 and stax. The builds are very different after the dac.

I have owned both, and as much as i loved the lcd-3's bass and never found it excessive, i find the 009 has more than adequate quantities of bass with the right equipment. Just like how i thought the hd800 always had no bass and i heard it with a darkvoice and that changed my opinion. And i said earlier, that i was disappointed in the apparently lack of bass when all i had was the LL, 009 and wavelength proton dac. Changing the proton to the mytek and switching out all my cables solved the problem. I am happier than i ever was with my lcd3 rig.