[bangraman]

Never trust a bunch of guys who get to listen to a heck of a lot more than you do? Granted they're journalists but having read their reviews, although they can't help but tinge their views with that of an amateur with questionable hearing, I think they do a reasonable job of trying to review impartially... and a lot better than most of you are able to manage, undoubtedly. If anything, Jasmine France has an anti-iPod-fanboy thing going on for the wrong reasons, which I don't particularly appreciate but I'm sure many of the MP3 player leets might do.


I'm happy with my Triport AE's for example for what they are... handy, casual, lightweight and very comfy headphones with reasonably decent sound (better than an ES7 for example) and usable isolation (ditto). And I challenge anyone to call me a peon

I think as people who're really in-depth into this, there's a temptation to give up some salient aspects of general, everyday / application-specific usability in favour of absolute sound quality. While I'd love to walk around with an SR-001MkII for example, it's just not practical. But many of the more obsessed will relish walking around with it. And I'm sure that there are other things you're not into as much, where other into whatever that is might castigate you for your ignorance for your choice. You've got to remember that CNET and the like caters for normal people.

 

[DemonicLemming]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bangraman /img/forum/go_quote.gif Never trust a bunch of guys who get to listen to a heck of a lot more than you do? Granted they're journalists but having read their reviews, although they can't help but tinge their views with that of an amateur with questionable hearing, I think they do a reasonable job of trying to review impartially... and a lot better than most of you are able to manage, undoubtedly. If anything, Jasmine France has an anti-iPod-fanboy thing going on for the wrong reasons, which I don't particularly appreciate but I'm sure many of the MP3 player leets might do. I'm happy with my Triport AE's for example for what they are... handy, casual, lightweight and very comfy headphones with reasonably decent sound (better than an ES7 for example) and usable isolation (ditto). And I challenge anyone to call me a peon I think as people who're really in-depth into this, there's a temptation to give up some salient aspects of general, everyday / application-specific usability in favour of absolute sound quality. While I'd love to walk around with an SR-001MkII for example, it's just not practical. But many of the more obsessed will relish walking around with it. And I'm sure that there are other things you're not into as much, where other into whatever that is might castigate you for your ignorance for your choice. You've got to remember that CNET and the like caters for normal people.

And promoting cans like HD280s and 555s, Grado SR60s and SR80s, and less-expensive but much better-sounding "non-trendy brands" somehow would go against writing for the normal people?

My parents are normal people, but if they read a review that impartially reviewed a Bose product, and then a review that, again, impartially reviewed the HD555, I think I'd know which ones my parents would pick. They're not stupid, they're simply at the will of the advertising dollars big companies throw at review magazines and the like.

I don't agree that the reviews are written for the "normal" people because there's simply WAY too much brand exclusion for that to be happening.

It's sort of like the morons in car rags like Car and Driver and Motortrend. Sure, they've probably test-driven more cars than me. But they still can't drive worth a crap and their track numbers prove it. Just because someone has a lot of experience within a specific market niche - like headphones or cars - does not in any way mean they're better at giving reviews like the actual niche community could do. I'll take the thoughts of a guy who builds and races Corvettes every weekend against the word of a paid magazine test-driver who probably commutes to work in a minivan and wouldn't know what a torque arm was if it hit him in the head. The guy who builds and races Corvettes knows what makes or breaks a performance car because he bleeds oil and transmission fluid. The other guy, well, it's just a job for him and he probably has trouble launching a manual car from a dead stop.

How can you take someone seriously when they recommend someone who wants to buy a Corvette test-drive a CAMRY instead, citing "more cargo room" as the reason? That's just an analogue to the headphone reviews of major magazines and review sites - how can you take someone seriously when they say that a set of Bose headphones is the "best bang for the buck and best sounding headphones for under $400"? Reviewing for the "common people" means you review everything in a specific price bracket, not just the trendy brands that are loose with their advertising money.

I think, heads-up, quite a few members here could do a much better, much more objective, and touch on many more salient features regarding headphone choice than these journalists. Hell, they do every day, they just don't get paid for it.

 

[bangraman]

What you've done is just proven my point. The HD280 for example is a different beast from the almost-equivalent Bose in terms of it's target market and usability. It's the monoculture enthusiast's inability to understand that because they're so deep into it that colours many of their opinions.


I've nerded out headphones possibly more than anyone else here because I didn't form my opinions by going to a meet and doing it over a minute, I bought every dang headphone I have an opinion on... which is, let me tell you, a very long list.


But I've also been with other people who're professional musicians or people in the periphery of the music-making industry (like singers

) as well as what you might call 'regular people' as part of helping out a consumer electronics manufacturer... and usability is a big deal for these people as well. Their priorities differ from the Focused-Hobby-Nerds like us, and journalists ~ proper journalists that is in the ilk that CNET employs, not your Engadget bloggers ~ as more 'everyman' focused people are capable of giving a better balanced review than the FHN.


Now the other thing is bashing something because of it's name without any experience of it. Taking the Triport as an example, it's general performance as a travelling phone exceeds that of the ATH-ES7... which doesn't get bashed here at all. That is the other element of the peer herd-driven enthusiasts that I don't appreciate.

 

[DemonicLemming]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bangraman /img/forum/go_quote.gif What you've done is just proven my point. The HD280 for example is a different beast from the almost-equivalent Bose in terms of it's target market and usability. It's the monoculture enthusiast's inability to understand that because they're so deep into it that colours many of their opinions. I've nerded out headphones possibly more than anyone else here because I didn't form my opinions by going to a meet and doing it over a minute, I bought every dang headphone I have an opinion on... which is, let me tell you, a very long list. But I've also been with other people who're professional musicians or people in the periphery of the music-making industry (like singers ) as well as what you might call 'regular people' as part of helping out a consumer electronics manufacturer... and usability is a big deal for these people as well. Their priorities differ from the Focused-Hobby-Nerds like us, and journalists ~ proper journalists that is in the ilk that CNET employs, not your Engadget bloggers ~ as more 'everyman' focused people are capable of giving a better balanced review than the FHN. Now the other thing is bashing something because of it's name without any experience of it. Taking the Triport as an example, it's general performance as a travelling phone exceeds that of the ATH-ES7... which doesn't get bashed here at all. That is the other element of the peer herd-driven enthusiasts that I don't appreciate.

Explain how it's a completely different headphone. They both play music, yes? They are both closed cans, yes? Other than Bose being overpriced and underperforming and aimed at the target audience that doesn't bother to research and buys based on trends, how are they different?

My whole point here is this - reviewers for major magazines and internet sites typically only review a very small amount of their given niche product, which I think is wrong. If someone is going to review something, and actually try and be honest about it, they should at least try and review a broad swath of what's available for that segment, rather than the trendy stuff. There is absolutely no reason, whatsoever, for a headphone reviewer to not compare and contrast a set of Bose headphones with a set of Sennheisers or Beyers or Grados. Why wouldn't they do that? Isn't the whole point of reviewing a product to place it in a relative "goodness" hierarchy with as many other products in the same category. That means if I review a set of Bose headphones, I should at least mention the other headphones it's being reviewed against, rather than just saying, "Bose is good! Buy it!"

You say Bose and HD280s are completely different. Ok, they're marketed at different groups, I guess - Bose at those who buy based on trends and not actual research, Sennheiser more likely aiming at brand-recognition or rudimentary pre-shopping research. However, that's where the differences really end. Just because they're marketed towards different groups of people does not mean they should be mutually exclusive when it comes to review time. A Ferrari F430 isn't marketed at the same group as the Corvette Z06 is, yet they're both high-performance sports cars, and thus, good candidates for comparing and contrasting in a review.

There's just no good reason someone who is doing a headphone review for a specific price range shouldn't mention companies other than the trendy ones. That's what gets people into doing their own research. Write a review on a set of HD555s, and mention at the end that they're comparable to Bose ____, Beyer _____, Grado ______, Ultrasone _______. At least give references so people can see what other headphones are in that class, directed advertising be damned.

 

[bangraman]

This is why I don't really bother arguing stuff anymore in enthusiast forums. People just prove me right over and over again while countering what I have to say. One day grasshopper, you'll get it.

 

[DemonicLemming]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bangraman /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is why I don't really bother arguing stuff anymore in enthusiast forums. People just prove me right over and over again while countering what I have to say. One day grasshopper, you'll get it.

Well, you haven't really proven nor rebutted anything, and I don't quite see how any of what I said "confirms" what you said, but if you want to think so, go for it.

 

[GlendaleViper]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrederikS|TPU /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think it is important to remember that even the best reviews are worthless if you have absolutely no experience with headphones.

Win!

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrederikS|TPU /img/forum/go_quote.gif You need to read a lot on sites like head-fi before you can appreciate most of the reviews on the web.

Lose!

Sort of buried and OT by now, but the first mistake you can make is to think that by reading the impressions of an "experienced, non-partisan" group, you can make better-informed purchase decisions. I may be taking this too far out of context (snipped from the quote were indications that FrederikS meant simply that there is much to learn about quantifying the sound experience in general) but I think it applies to many on this board: Reading teaches you nothing, nothing, about actually listening and discovering for yourself what you really like.

Tying this back into the OP's linked article, I'm not entirely sure why the thread took the turn that it did. I'm no fan of Cnet myself and, frankly, the "article" felt more like a "this-is-what-I-just-thought-about-two-seconds-ago" journal entry than a full-blown discussion piece about audio subjectivity, but what is wrong with bringing it up? This is something we talk about to death around here and is really the cornerstone to the old adage "trust your ears and no one else's". The piece touched upon a number of barriers to a homogeneous listening experience: age, physical differences, personal preference... even the fallibility of "safeguards" like DBT and less stringent methods like group comparison. If anything, it gives readers of that site a frame of reference for past and future reviews.

 

[trickywombat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bangraman /img/forum/go_quote.gif and journalists ~ proper journalists that is in the ilk that CNET employs, not your Engadget bloggers ~ as more 'everyman' focused people are capable of giving a better balanced review than the FHN.

I think we give "journalists" too much credit in this country. Just because they can write well about something doesn't mean they write accurately about a subject, or that they know what they're talking about.

If CNET or Katie Couric did a review on headphone amps, I'd still take Skylab's word over theirs.

 

[analogbox]

Quote:

Originally Posted by trickywombat /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think we give "journalists" too much credit in this country. Just because they can write well about something doesn't mean they write accurately about a subject, or that they know what they're talking about.

I agree. Most of the time when I read those articles I can't help but think that these people are just babbling most of the time and try to sugar coat their insufficient knowledges with their fancy writing which I see a fair amount on head-fi, too.

As it was said on the OP's linked article, headphones are naturally a very subjective item and you can't really trust anybody's word until you actually try them for real.

 

[trickywombat]

Headphones are subjective, and "journalists" are not homogenous. A poster above was implying that as a "proper" journalist, a CNET reviewer should automatically be granted a measure of respect. I'm not critiquing her article, but merely pointing out that no "journalist", proper or otherwise, is better than another merely by title and employer alone.

We need to evaluate the writer's credentials as well as the substance of the article - whether they're on a blog, Head-Fi or CNET.

While I'm sure Jasmine France has no intent to mislead in any of her articles, I do not think that just because she is a "proper" journalist by profession at a news organization, she automatically has the best credentials (and I don't mean press credentials) or the most informed opinion.

While Ms France is CNET's go-to person for headphones according to CNET, her technical background prior to working for CNET includes:
Administrative Assistant, Doremus, August 2002 — August 2003 (1 year 1 month)
Senior Teller, SBCFCU, September 1999 — August 2001 (2 years)

Therefore, just because somebody is a "proper" journalist, I do not reflexively value or dismiss their opinion over a run-of-the-mill blog's.

 

[vcoheda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlendaleViper /img/forum/go_quote.gif Reading teaches you nothing, nothing, about actually listening and discovering for yourself what you really like.

listening is more important than reading but the one enforces the other, so i think they are both important.

 

[DemonicLemming]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif listening is more important than reading but the one enforces the other, so i think they are both important.

Not to mention, reading is absolutely vital to understand the terms other audiophiles use to describe certain response and sounds if one wants to write reviews.

 

[trickywombat]

Owning is important, too, otherwise you won't know how something sounds in the long term and with different components and music.

Read, Listen and Own.

 

[johnsonad]

I enjoy my Bose computer speakers

Small, sound alright for the office and people think I'm high class based off of the name

Mention the home gear and they become clueless

 

[saint.panda]

Reviewing a HD 280 on CNET would be pointless because none of the readers would buy one anyway, no matter how good the review. Same for a lot of open headphones because the main reason for most people to buy headphones is for portability, isolation, looks, and so on. Sound quality is up there somewhere as well.

Different people have different priorities. I like to read reviews written by those whose priorities are similar to mine. If CNET caters to a certain set of priorities, which happens to match that of the majority of their readers, that's their prerogative.

Owning or listening is certainly always better. But if I can't listen or own as do most people, reading is the next best alternative.