I have tried different planars options. The problem is that this is not a natural sound like the NDH 30. In planars, the usual standard design is a membrane against the ear. In the NDH 30 - new generation membrane is ultra-thin and the speed is on par with the best planars. But the sound is natural. And in the NDH 30, a special design inside the cups and a different membrane placement. There are no resonances at all. And it gives a different sound field.
Neumann NDH 30
- Thread starter rudbeard
- Start date
John Buchanan
1000+ Head-Fier
Expanding on the sounds on this video - note the aeroplane flying in the upper mid left, slowly moving front to back until it disappears because of a splice starting with 2 big bangs. I've just been to a fireworks display in Brisbane. 160dB explosions are going to create a lot of echoes from surrounding buildings and this recording is exactly how it sounded. Now enjoying it via the AKG K812.
xeizo
500+ Head-Fier
I live in an area with planes flying over every day, yes, it sounds like that. And the fireworks, yes, exactly like New Year's Eve. Hifiman HE400SE.
I definitely don't hear this lack of treble/airiness, neither it shows itself in measurements. But certainly one has to wear the headphone properly. This means to put it where the ear feels more free and close to center of the earpad. The earpads are rather large and roomy (6.5cm inner diameter at half pad height - 8 cm inner diameter at the bottom) so you can move them deliberately towards your face (not by mistake though). I measured the effect of wrong positioning with miniDSP Ears. In the graph below each line represents a movement by 3mm, starting with the headphone brought excessively to the front (closer to one's face), where the back of the ear touches well the earpad and going on moving the headphone towards the back of the head. A total movement of about ±1cm from the center is possible. A loss of high treble, over 9 kHz and of midrange/high area (between 1.5kHz and 6kHz) is measured and slightly heard when the headphone is brought towards ones face. This happens because the driver (which is already off-center by design) moves even further from the center of the ear:
The above graphs don't go all the way to the extreme headphone position towards the back of the head because the treble gain stabilizes and starts to lower again to a small degree. Adding them hear would clutter the higher 2-3 lines, which represent well the middle positioning. The higher lines are what one constantly gets with "careless" positioning once he is accustomed to the headphone. Thus there is no fear of wrong listening - one has to lessen the treble deliberately this way.
The off center driver design is used to improve the spatial behavior of the headphone. AFAIK it was used firstly in the HD800 and is applied today to some other expensive headphones (Focals, Meze 109, Neumann and maybe some more).
Another possible mistake that someone could do is to reverse the headphone L to R. The correct wearing is with the cable on the right - contrary to most other designs. If reversed, a significant alteration of the frequency response results and some mid and high frequency is lost, as is measured below. Otherwise the NDH 30 is a very neutral headphone up to the spectrum edges. Just put it on properly.
Graphs with miniDSP Ears, 1/3 octave smoothing.
Compensation curve: "HEQ" proposed by miniDSP as a base for EQing.
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jagwap
1000+ Head-Fier
Could you clarify the different curves? which ones are which?I definitely don't hear this lack of treble/airiness, neither it shows itself in measurements. But certainly one has to wear the headphone properly. This means to put it where the ear feels more free and close to center of the earpad. The earpads are rather large and roomy (6.5cm inner diameter at half pad height - 8 cm inner diameter at the bottom) so you can move them deliberately towards your face (not by mistake though). I measured the effect of wrong positioning with miniDSP Ears. In the graph below each line represents a movement by 3mm, starting with the headphone brought excessively to the front (closer to one's face), where the back of the ear touches well the earpad and going on moving the headphone towards the back of the head. A total movement of about ±1cm from the center is possible. A loss of high treble, over 9 kHz and of midrange/high area (between 1.5kHz and 6kHz) is measured and slightly heard when the headphone is brought towards ones face. This happens because the driver (which is already off-center by design) moves even further from the center of the ear:
The above graphs don't go all the way to the extreme headphone position towards the back of the head because the treble gain stabilizes and starts to lower again to a small degree. Adding them hear would clutter the higher 2-3 lines, which represent well the middle positioning. The higher lines are what one constantly gets with "careless" positioning once he is accustomed to the headphone. Thus there is no fear of wrong listening - one has to lessen the treble deliberately this way.
The off center driver design is used to improve the spatial behavior of the headphone. AFAIK it was used firstly in the HD800 and is applied today to some other expensive headphones (Focals, Meze 109, Neumann and maybe some more).
Another possible mistake that someone could do is to reverse the headphone L to R. The correct wearing is with the cable on the right - contrary to most other designs. If reversed, a significant alteration of the frequency response results and some mid and high frequency is lost, as is measured below. Otherwise the NDH 30 is a very neutral headphone up to the spectrum edges. Just put it on properly.
Graphs with miniDSP Ears, 1/3 octave smoothing.
Compensation curve: "HEQ" proposed by miniDSP as a base for EQing.
In the first graph, the lowest curve (red) is the one measured when the headphone is the closest to the face. As we move it back with 3mm steps the response raises gradually. The top three curves are what I get with the headphone at the proper position ±3mm (where the ear feels the most free and centered in the earpad).
In the second graph, the red curve is the average of the top 2nd and 3rd curves of the first graph, representing very well the response at the normal position. I omitted the top 1st curve from the average to be sure that the result is not "better" than reality. The green curve is the wrong response, taken when the headphone is inverted L to R (cable on the left) and centered well.
[Of course, the artificial ears of the miniDSP Ears set cannot feel "free" or "centered". I tried as carefully as I could to imitate the various positions of the headphones on my head when placing the headphones on the measuring set.]
As I wrote earlier, the miniDSP Ears is a basic measuring set (costs about $300) and cannot have the precision of systems that cost thousands of dollars. Also, the three compensation curves given by mini DSP (specific for each unit, downloaded for unit S/N) are a good starting point but also need some further investigation.
In the second graph, the red curve is the average of the top 2nd and 3rd curves of the first graph, representing very well the response at the normal position. I omitted the top 1st curve from the average to be sure that the result is not "better" than reality. The green curve is the wrong response, taken when the headphone is inverted L to R (cable on the left) and centered well.
[Of course, the artificial ears of the miniDSP Ears set cannot feel "free" or "centered". I tried as carefully as I could to imitate the various positions of the headphones on my head when placing the headphones on the measuring set.]
As I wrote earlier, the miniDSP Ears is a basic measuring set (costs about $300) and cannot have the precision of systems that cost thousands of dollars. Also, the three compensation curves given by mini DSP (specific for each unit, downloaded for unit S/N) are a good starting point but also need some further investigation.
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jagwap
1000+ Head-Fier
Many thanks. Even though that is a 2dB per division, that is a flat response.
I could not find a good representation of the MiniDSP HEQ curve online. It says it is similar to Harman curve, but which one? I personally prefer the Harman curves without the bass boost below 200Hz, but can enjoy ones which do not exceed it is the bass quality is excellent. So I guess your measurement show a raw bass response with around +5dB from 150Hz and below?
Harman research has said the curve is based on preferred response of a large sample, and the bass boost was preferred by younger men. I am no longer young, and my tastes have not been influenced by Beats and the like, so I like it flat down there. Probably because I spent my formative years with Sennheiser HD-420 etc.
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MiniDSP provides three pairs (for L+R channel) of compensation curves, RAW, HEQ and HPN for each individual unit, you can find more information about them in the miniDSP Ears manual. The black lines in the following graphs are these curves (L chanel). The first one (RAW) includes only some small correction for the mic capsule being used in the specific set. The second one (HEQ) has some similarities with the Harman and also includes the small specific mic correction. You can see that this curve does not "demand" much raised bass, only 2-3 dB to consider the bass "flat". The third looses the Harman characteristics at the ends of the spectrum but retains the compensation for the ear shape effect (and the mic correction). The green lines are the resulting measurements (NDH 30, L channel, 1/3 octave smoothing) when the compensation curves are substracted from the initial measurement.
RAW:
HEQ:
HPN:
RAW:
HEQ:
HPN:
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jagwap
1000+ Head-Fier
Excellent. I looked but didn't find this detail.MiniDSP provides three pairs (for L+R channel) of compensation curves, RAW, HEQ and HPN for each individual unit, you can find more information about them in the miniDSP Ears manual. The black lines in the following graphs are these curves (L chanel). The first one (RAW) includes only some small correction for the mic capsule being used in the specific set. The second one (HEQ) has some similarities with the Harman and also includes the small specific mic correction. You can see that this curve does not "demand" much raised bass, only 2-3 dB to consider the bass "flat". The third looses the Harman characteristics at the ends of the spectrum but retains the compensation for the ear shape effect (and the mic correction). The green lines are the resulting measurements (NDH 30, L channel, 1/3 octave smoothing) when the compensation curves are substracted from the initial measurement.
RAW:
HEQ:
HPN:
The scale is still wide, but it tells me I have to try these. I wish the closed version was this even, but that is hard to achieve.
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Another guy wearing the NHD 30 backwards and ...reviewing it!
He misses all the high frequencies (see post #229, last graph).
Ed: with auto translation I see that he uses them long term so he must know how to put them on. His review of sound quality is unusually accurate.
He misses all the high frequencies (see post #229, last graph).
Ed: with auto translation I see that he uses them long term so he must know how to put them on. His review of sound quality is unusually accurate.
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I saw a video before where the presentation knows all Studio headphones. he said the ndh30 is overpriced. the Sennheiser hd400 pro is better than it at a fraction of the price, with punchier, more dynamic bass and more extended treble. dt1990 pro also found it better than ndh30 in several respects. this hype is pushed a bit too far around ndh30.
I think I have seen it. It is strange, because this opinion inverts totally the reality. I don't know why though...
There is no hype around NDH 30. Time will show it. Of course, instead of waiting, an audition with TOL electronics is recommended. Do not buy it without comparing it to "audiophile" headphones in the € 1000-2000 category. It is an absolute reference* headphone irrespectively of price. It is simply priced/marketed as a professional tool not as an "audiophile's" dream. We are just lucky to have discovered it.
*for neutrality, detail, natural sound.
There is no hype around NDH 30. Time will show it. Of course, instead of waiting, an audition with TOL electronics is recommended. Do not buy it without comparing it to "audiophile" headphones in the € 1000-2000 category. It is an absolute reference* headphone irrespectively of price. It is simply priced/marketed as a professional tool not as an "audiophile's" dream. We are just lucky to have discovered it.
*for neutrality, detail, natural sound.
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“Go ahead, make my day!” 
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xeizo
500+ Head-Fier
A bit too much compression and autotune for me, the digital bells in the first song wasn't that compressed though and sounded great
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