[xnor]

 
I respectfully disagree with you guys.  If magnetic fields and quantum physics are indeed real things it's not all that unfathomable that they can have an effect on an electrical audio signal.

Well, to what extent?
 
You see, when you move then time runs slower for you due to time dilation. So if you travel a lot by car, train etc. you won't age as fast as someone who doesn't.
Sounds just as ludicrous... but is true. As for extent, if you travel your whole life 8 hours per day each day at a constant 100 km/h (62 mph) you will be a couple of micro (10^-6) seconds younger.
 
If you insist that such effects can cause perceivable differences then please provide some evidence for that claim.
 

I'm not completely objective anymore with Audio Magic, having been selling their devices for a few years now, but I was a user for a few years before that.  No, Jerry at AM isn't going to tell you how his products do what they do, but he is a world-class authority on power and its ancillary effects on audio.  His newest device, the Pulsed Electron Alignment box (PEA) is based on changing the spin direction of some electrons to the same direction as the others.  It has no shortage of detractors, but as you can see from the link below it is based on Science, as are his other products. 

Please link to where he describes the science (not marketing babble) of his products.
 

He had the PEA devices in his room at RMAF this weekend, on a switch, to demonstrate the difference between on and off.  You can't ask for anyone to do more than that to make their case.  If there are people who won't listen to it, because they already know it's not real, nothing he or anyone else could do about that.

Are you serious?
What was the test setup? What was the test procedure? Was it blind? Was the demonstration isolated from all the noise of the show?
Where are the measurements of the device so we can exclude that it might degrade (color) the signal? Where are the measurements of the magnetic fields?
 
I start to understand why there's "magic" in their name.
 
Quote:

http://www.udel.edu/udaily/2013/may/spintronics-finding-050813.html

How is this in any way applicable to audio?
 

This whole thread was about whether a difference in USB cable sound is real.  I've never gotten caught up in being concerned about understanding how a product can do what it does.  My only goal is better sound and if I don't get it I'll ask for a refund.  If my ears are so bad I can't effectively evaluate the sound then understanding or agreeing with the science won't make any difference.  So if I find the sound is better or even much better, why should I care about anything else?

There are also many people convinced that quack homeopathy products ($$$) work when they've shown to be as effective as $0.002 sugar pills. You could actually replace "USB cable sound" with homeopathy in your post without the need to change anything else.
 
We don't want to remain ignorant about how things work. We don't want to take people's claims on faith. We don't want to be (self-)deluded.

 

[Fork]

 
We don't want to remain ignorant about how things work. We don't want to take people's claims on faith. We don't want to be (self-)deluded.

 
Xnor, you seem to be missing my main point on everything.  If I let my ears be the judge, it doesn't matter how things work.  If your ears are capable of hearing differences in sound don't take anyone's claim on faith, just listen, evaluate whether the result is positive and worth the money, then buy it or return it. 
 
Anytime someone has something good to say about a product or device an abundance of people who invariably have no personal experience with the product are out in force telling me it's bad...why, to save me the time of trying it for myself?  Thanks to them, but I'm an adult.  If I want to audition a $1,000 USB cable in my system do I really need to check with my forum nanny about whether the claims comport with their understanding of science?

 

[Tablix]

xnor is just stating that placebo affect is real, if you a/b without being told one or other was different in all likelihood you would hear exactly the same thing.  suggestion is very powerful, hence why marketing teams get paid such huge sums of money to design adverts and packaging.  
 
"member of the trade" makes you more unbelievable as you have a vested interest in persuading people, regardless of your knowledge or experience a cynical person would see you as soft promoting a technology.
 
Placebo IS real, play two identical speakers with identical source yet one is 2db higher in volume people will prefer the louder speaker 80-90% of the time.  You can even do this changing the speaker enclosures and let people see the two "different" speakers and they will prefer the one that is louder.  You can also match volumes and give on enclosure a nice chrome volume control compared to a plastic one, guess which sounds better this time....
 
If it sounds better you you then fine, but in terms of science and audio accuracy these things are measurable.  If someone can show measurable difference in data flowing down a USB cable then I will be completely stunned.   

 

[Fork]

 
Placebo IS real, play two identical speakers with identical source yet one is 2db higher in volume people will prefer the louder speaker 80-90% of the time.  You can even do this changing the speaker enclosures and let people see the two "different" speakers and they will prefer the one that is louder.  You can also match volumes and give on enclosure a nice chrome volume control compared to a plastic one, guess which sounds better this time....
 
If it sounds better you you then fine, but in terms of science and audio accuracy these things are measurable.  If someone can show measurable difference in data flowing down a USB cable then I will be completely stunned.   

 
Yes, of course the placebo effect is real, but we're talking about experienced listeners, not random people exposed to speaker sound.  If you can't get over placebo what are you doing auditioning $1,000 USB cables?  Even if someone can show you a measurable difference in a USB cable it wouldn't guarantee that it'd have any audible effect on the sound.  Again there's no getting around letting your ears be the judge.
 
I'm all for doing double blind tests.  I don't do it for the vast majority of my purchases, because I don't find it necessary to spend the kind of time setting up a double-blind to find gear that satisfies me.  However, if you want to do it you wouldn't do nonsensical things like "measurement the magnetic fields".  A double-blind is as simple as having a listener and a switcher; if the listener can blindly distinguish between the two choices in a way that's statistically significant there is no placebo effect.  No measuring equipment, scientific prognostication or anything else is needed.

 
The notion that any machine is better for evaluating sound quality than the human ear is silly.  Yes, machines have higher capability in certain areas, but we're not talking about sound for the ears of a machine, we're talking about sound for human ears.  Anyone who builds speakers for a living will tell you he once built a speaker with the most perfect specs and measurements imaginable and it sucked.  If you want to use machine measurements to build your system your sound will most assuredly suck, but if that's how were going about it you probably won't know the difference.

 

[proton007]

Yes, of course the placebo effect is real, but we're talking about experienced listeners, not random people exposed to speaker sound.  If you can't get over placebo what are you doing auditioning $1,000 USB cables?  Even if someone can show you a measurable difference in a USB cable it wouldn't guarantee that it'd have any audible effect on the sound.  Again there's no getting around letting your ears be the judge.

I'm all for doing double blind tests.  I don't do it for the vast majority of my purchases, because I don't find it necessary to spend the kind of time setting up a double-blind to find gear that satisfies me.  However, if you want to do it you wouldn't do nonsensical things like "measurement the magnetic fields".  A double-blind is as simple as having a listener and a switcher; if the listener can blindly distinguish between the two choices in a way that's statistically significant there is no placebo effect.  No measuring equipment, scientific prognostication or anything else is needed.

The notion that any machine is better for evaluating sound quality than the human ear is silly.  Yes, machines have higher capability in certain areas, but we're not talking about sound for the ears of a machine, we're talking about sound for human ears.  Anyone who builds speakers for a living will tell you he once built a speaker with the most perfect specs and measurements imaginable and it sucked.  If you want to use machine measurements to build your system your sound will most assuredly suck, but if that's how were going about it you probably won't know the difference.

Thats a typical argument.

And I would like to meet this speaker manufacturer that made the 'most perfect' speaker and still didn't know why it sounded bad.

People who design by ear may find their niche in a particular listener segment, there's always someone who'll like that signature, however hopelessly bad it measures. But when you're making a good product, one that is adaptable to different tastes and doesn't cost an arm and a leg, thats where a good engineer comes in.

 

[xnor]

I prefer to call it bias, so I'm gonna use that term..
 
Quote:

  Yes, of course the placebo effect is real, but we're talking about experienced listeners, not random people exposed to speaker sound.

What has experience got to do with it?
 
 

If you can't get over placebo what are you doing auditioning $1,000 USB cables?

Are you serious? I don't think you understand the power of bias. Nobody is immune to it. There are experiments that show this. Olive did tests with some very experienced listeners ranging form Harman employees to audio retailers, professional audio reviewers ... They all were influenced subconsciously by bias in what they were >>> hearing <<<.
 
 

Even if someone can show you a measurable difference in a USB cable it wouldn't guarantee that it'd have any audible effect on the sound.  Again there's no getting around letting your ears be the judge.

Don't you think that measurable differences at the output of a DAC due to a different USB cable would be a pretty good motivation for engineers to improve the USB specification? Don't you think serious pro audio companies would recommend these silly cables?
There are tight limits of tolerance in the USB spec for a reason - to ensure virtually error-free data transmission in time. If your DAC's sound breaks down with a cheap but built-to-spec USB cable, then the DAC is very likely crap.
 
 

I'm all for doing double blind tests.  I don't do it for the vast majority of my purchases, because I don't find it necessary to spend the kind of time setting up a double-blind to find gear that satisfies me. 

You really should do one between USB cables.
I also find them a waste of time when testing components that don't make a difference.

 
 

However, if you want to do it you wouldn't do nonsensical things like "measurement the magnetic fields".

That question for those measurements was directed at the science bit you posted and implied to have something to do with some magical audio product.
Just linking to some scientific paper and selling a product claiming to be based on it is utter nonsense. Btw, this has been done countless times before. Quantum woo woo healing is a good example. It's using sincere science to justify some nonsense hoping that people will buy into it when they catch a glimpse of references to (pseudo-)science.
 
Of course when you ask the people selling those products the answers are anything but science. When you ask about measurements you get excuses. When you ask about tests you get excuses.
 
 

The notion that any machine is better for evaluating sound quality than the human ear is silly.  Yes, machines have higher capability in certain areas, but we're not talking about sound for the ears of a machine, we're talking about sound for human ears. 

A USB cable does not transmit sound so there are no audio measurements with USB cables per se. Nobody is saying that machines are better at evaluating perceived qualities - that indeed actually makes little sense. We'd have to have a perfect model of our whole auditory system.
 
The thing is, if you take two identical DACs but with two completely different USB cables (one cheap, one super duper audiophile grade and expensive) and subtract their output signals from each other the output is the noise floor of the DACs. It is physically impossible for there to be a difference above that remaining extremely low-level noise.
 

Anyone who builds speakers for a living will tell you he once built a speaker with the most perfect specs and measurements imaginable and it sucked.  If you want to use machine measurements to build your system your sound will most assuredly suck, but if that's how were going about it you probably won't know the difference.

Tell that to Sean Olive (Harman Research, btw he's on the forum), Paul Barton (PSB Speakers), Floyd Toole (Harman, National Research Council of Canada) ... they have the best measurement equipment and they would certainly enlighten you.
Experiments on correlation of objective with subjective "measurements" have been done over 30 years ago.

 

[proton007]

This reminds me.
 
I have come up with a new DAC. It involves the use of quantum entanglement and spooky action. Basically, there's no cables involved, it can play any recording from anywhere in the universe by aligning its own quantum bits the same way as the original recording.
Even Einstein himself said this of the phenomenon:
 

 The entangled quantum particles seem to interact with each other instantaneously, over any distance, breaking the speed of light and thus relativity

 
It makes use of a D-Wave 2 system. Everything is stored and processed in qubits which are far superior than the normal bits.
 
I'm accepting orders. $50,000 each.

 

[Lorspeaker]

sorry to interrupt ..
 
anyone tried the cabledyne silver reference since i last posted? 
http://www.cabledyne.com/usb-cable.html
30days return policy, made in USA....  
if u have, pm me your feedback, thanks.
 
________________________________________________________
 
 
 
back to u science-guys  ...0s 1s...zzzz
 

 

[proton007]

 Conventional digital cable construction employs plastic braid coverings or PVC jackets that impart a sonic coloration to the signal.

 

 
 

 

[Fork]

Quote:

I would like to meet this speaker manufacturer that made the 'most perfect' speaker and still didn't know why it sounded bad.

People who design by ear may find their niche in a particular listener segment, there's always someone who'll like that signature, however hopelessly bad it measures. But when you're making a good product, one that is adaptable to different tastes and doesn't cost an arm and a leg, thats where a good engineer comes in.

 
His name is Gary Koh and he's the owner of Genesis Advanced Technologies.  Gary designs speakers, amplifiers, preamplifiers, phono preamplifiers and cables.  He's a member of the Pacific Northwest Audio Society and relayed this story to myself and some other friends.  You can meet him in person if you want to fly to Seattle, but if that's too much of a commitment, you could just go over to the What's Best Forum and introduce yourself there.  I didn't say guys like this don't use measurements in designing their speakers; however they don't rely on machines and measurements, they rely on their ears.  When Gary makes a change to his speaker he listens to his reference tracks to evaluate it...he doesn't hook a meter up to the speaker.
 
http://genesisloudspeakers.com/
 

Originally Posted by proton007 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
I have come up with a new DAC. It involves the use of quantum entanglement and spooky action. Basically, there's no cables involved, it can play any recording from anywhere in the universe by aligning its own quantum bits the same way as the original recording.
Even Einstein himself said this of the phenomenon:
 
It makes use of a D-Wave 2 system. Everything is stored and processed in qubits which are far superior than the normal bits.
 
I'm accepting orders. $50,000 each.

 
You've done a good job of explaining to everyone the inner-workings of the universe, but so far it seems all the audio products you've developed are imaginary.
 
 

 
Quote:

  Yes, of course the placebo effect is real, but we're talking about experienced listeners, not random people exposed to speaker sound.

What has experience got to do with it?

 
I'm of the opinion that most experienced audiophiles are able to distinguish characteristics of sound better than the average person, in the same way one might expect the listening ability of a studio mastering technician or concert violinist to be better than that of say a bank teller.  Do you listen with your headphones over your ears, because you can't seriously be disputing that experience has nothing to do with listening ability?

 

[proton007]

  Quote:
   
You've done a good job of explaining to everyone the inner-workings of the universe, but so far it seems all the audio products you've developed are imaginary.

 
Yeah. I should be the one getting the Nobel Prize next year.
And the claims made by the exotic equipment makers are all objectively provable.
Here's a prototype pic, btw. The final version will be smaller.

 
 
 

  Quote:
 
His name is Gary Koh and he's the owner of Genesis Advanced Technologies.  Gary designs speakers, amplifiers, preamplifiers, phono preamplifiers and cables.  He's a member of the Pacific Northwest Audio Society and relayed this story to myself and some other friends.  You can meet him in person if you want to fly to Seattle, but if that's too much of a commitment, you could just go over to the What's Best Forum and introduce yourself there.  I didn't say guys like this don't use measurements in designing their speakers; however they don't rely on machines and measurements, they rely on their ears.  When Gary makes a change to his speaker he listens to his reference tracks to evaluate it...he doesn't hook a meter up to the speaker.
 
http://genesisloudspeakers.com/
 

Well, I'm not even sure what he said, and what you make of it (its a subjective evaluation). All I'll say is that looking at the site, they seem to rely a lot on improving specs and transparency.

 

[proton007]

  Quote:
   
I'm of the opinion that most experienced audiophiles are able to distinguish characteristics of sound better than the average person, in the same way one might expect the listening ability of a studio mastering technician or concert violinist to be better than that of say a bank teller.  Do you listen with your headphones over your ears, because you can't seriously be disputing that experience has nothing to do with listening ability?

 
What you mean to say is that experienced listeners don't suffer from placebo?

 

[dclaz]

Moving slightly back on to the topic, any difference between using a USB 2.0 or USB 3.0 cable? Is it possible 2.0 devices not be happy with newer cables?

 

[xnor]

 
His name is Gary Koh and he's the owner of Genesis Advanced Technologies.  Gary designs speakers, amplifiers, preamplifiers, phono preamplifiers and cables.  He's a member of the Pacific Northwest Audio Society and relayed this story to myself and some other friends.  You can meet him in person if you want to fly to Seattle, but if that's too much of a commitment, you could just go over to the What's Best Forum and introduce yourself there.  I didn't say guys like this don't use measurements in designing their speakers; however they don't rely on machines and measurements, they rely on their ears.  When Gary makes a change to his speaker he listens to his reference tracks to evaluate it...he doesn't hook a meter up to the speaker.
 
http://genesisloudspeakers.com/

 
Never heard of them, but so what? There are many PhDs in homeopathy also.
 
Btw, here's what one of his products measure like: http://www.stereophile.com/content/genesis-technologies-genesis-iii-loudspeaker-measurements. In one word: horrible.
In more words: impedance dips to about 1.5 ohms at 40 Hz (ugh!), a huge +10 dB boost at 65 Hz (one note mush), sucked out mids, and generally very uneven response plus cabinet resonances.
 
 

You've done a good job of explaining to everyone the inner-workings of the universe, but so far it seems all the audio products you've developed are imaginary.

Not everyone enjoys ripping off people.
 
 

I'm of the opinion that most experienced audiophiles are able to distinguish characteristics of sound better than the average person, in the same way one might expect the listening ability of a studio mastering technician or concert violinist to be better than that of say a bank teller.  Do you listen with your headphones over your ears, because you can't seriously be disputing that experience has nothing to do with listening ability?

Sure, experience usually leads to higher correlation between good measurements and positive subjective impressions, but I was talking about bias. No, experience does not eliminate bias.

 

[xnor]

  sorry to interrupt ..
 
anyone tried the cabledyne silver reference since i last posted?

No but as far as I can tell it's an USB cable, what do you expect? First thing before even thinking of buying is would be to send them an email asking if it conforms to the USB 2.0 specification.
 

back to u science-guys  ...0s 1s...zzzz

Science is about reality, if that bores you ... fine. Btw, since you seem to dislike the idea of digital data being transferred accurately: we can look at the (lack of) effect of expensive USB cables by analyzing at the analog output of D/A converters.
 

  Moving slightly back on to the topic, any difference between using a USB 2.0 or USB 3.0 cable? Is it possible 2.0 devices not be happy with newer cables?

USB 3.0 type B plug is not compatible with an USB 2.0 type b receptacle. Type A plugs are compatible however.