Need recommendation for headphone system with 4K budget

[HiFiHawaii808]

IEMs are a whole other rabbithole. Stay away.

I'll say. What they don' tell you in advance is how expensive the cables are. I actually had 2 people offer me used IEM cables for between $300-500 informing me of how great a deal it is.

IEMs have their place though. I wouldn't live without them. So, I have 5 after giving away 2 of them.

 

[Deolum]

IEMs are a whole other rabbithole. Stay away.

Indeed.

 

[Ryan Cao]

I have a slightly different view on the topic.

Expect that forums and reviews don't help and at the start can even be contraproductive. On Headfi every single thread is around 98% positive because the fanboys just group up there. Took me around 2 years to realize that. Critical views or comments who point out serious drawbacks usually don't get much attention.

With the time you learn what to look for, which people you can trust and which people have the same taste like you or which people have the exact opposite taste of you. That's kinda helpful.

But for the start there is no way but auditioning for yourself. Like above mentioned i think buying used is the best way. If you get good deals and sell for good prices you can in theory test all the audio stuff in the world for +- 0$. I even know people who actually make profit with this.

Usually it's not enough to test 2 or 3 headphones or setups and say now you're totally satisfied. Some people have tried hundreds and are not. So always buying new stuff and returning it isn't really the best option.

Most reasonable thing to do is to hit up retailers if they have some demo/b-stock they can lend you.

Second problem with demoing is that you need a whole setup. If you try a headphone at a store on a different setup you can not compare it. If you want to compare different dacs or components the whole mess really starts because every single piece in the chain has to be the same. There are so many pieces that influence the sound. The source, the file, the digital transport to the dac, the implementations of usb or coax ports on the dac, the dac itself, the amp, for some people the cables etc. So comparing single parts to build a whole setup is not a short term task but a very long way.

If i started new from scratch i wouldn't go that way again but i would solve the problem with an all in one device. So before you demo single pieces of a setup and start a years long journey i'd first compare some all in one devices. I'd look out for devices that consist of

a) a streamer
b) a dac
c) an amp

If you can compare 2 or 3 of those devices you can imo make a much more solid decision then when comparing 2 or 3 different single amps or dacs unless you want to copy the exact same setup that you've heard. But especially in your price segment the all in one devices are in my experience superior to those selfmade mixed combos. You can have 3 individually very good devices that when mixed together just don't hit you taste because the combination doesn't harmonize.

So my advice: give 1 or 2 solid all in one devices that include a streamer a chance before you dive in the deeper game. If you like it it saves you a big chunk of time and money.

My prefs for 4k:

Choice A:

2 k - All in one streamer, dac, amp preamp

200 $ - Headphones (HD600 or HD650)

Spend the rest for active speakers


Choice B:

2 k - All in one streamer, dac, amp

2 k - highend headphones like Utopia, Arya after auditioning them

Choice C:

2k - streamer, dac

2k - E-stat amp, headphone set like the Stax L700 or the Hifiman Jade II

Choice D:

500 $ - DAP

2 k - easy to drive highend headphone like Utopia or AH-D9200

Spend the rest on IEMs

Hey! Thanks for the advice. This is a very new angle. I never thought about it before, but it’s very appealing!

I know very little about all in one devices. Do you have any recommendations?

Also if I pair a 2k all in one with a 200 headphone, won’t it be a waste for the all in one device?

 

[Ryan Cao]

Hey! Thanks for the advice. This is a very new angle. I never thought about it before, but it’s very appealing!

I know very little about all in one devices. Do you have any recommendations?

Also if I pair a 2k all in one with a 200 headphone, won’t it be a waste for the all in one device?

Forgot to ask another question. Where is a good place to buy used gears? How to find out whether the asked price is a fair one? Thanks!

 

[HiFiHawaii808]

Right here on head fi

 

[buke9]

I would like to point you to the Focal Clear. It is also on sale right now, you can get it for 999€ atm.

The Drop HE-5XX’’s are $220 fine and comfortable headphones just saying.

 

[Deolum]

Hey! Thanks for the advice. This is a very new angle. I never thought about it before, but it’s very appealing!

I know very little about all in one devices. Do you have any recommendations?

Also if I pair a 2k all in one with a 200 headphone, won’t it be a waste for the all in one device?

My experience with these devices is limited too. One device i can recommend is the NAD C658 for example. BluOS Streamer with Tidal, Amazon Music, Qobuz etc, Dac, Amp and Preamp. This is one of the products you won't find anything about on headfi but when i hooked it up i was shocked how good is was compared to my normal chain and it's price/performance ratio is very very good. What i loved about this too was the definition of "hasslefreeness". No tweaks, streaming is so easy, no setup just plug and play.

No it won't be a waste because the price of headphones says very little about performances. A 200 $ headphone isn't per se worse than a $ 2000 $ headphone. It's not like TVs or fridges.
That's why i always facepalm when i read something like "looking for a headphone from 1000 $ to 2000 $. That says they won't buy any headphone for 500 $ that is equally good or better.

I voted for the HD600/650 especially because
1. they play incredibly above their pricepoint
2. they scale infinitely

There are people that drive their 650 with a 10 k chain next to a Utopia and a Stax 009. It's the only entry level price headphone i know that is generally accepted as an endgame headphone.

HD600/650 are like Nissan GTR and Toyota Supra.

The NAD C658 Combo with the HD600 was by far the best price performance combo i've ever heard and i was short before selling all my gear because i couldn't really justify to keep it for price performance.

But again you should listen for yourself because for example this combination has a very small soundstage. The NAD itself had a small soundstage and the HD600 too. So if you are someone who sets soundstage on top of your prios (which i don't) you will never be happy with this combination.

Used gear either on ebay or headfi. I never use headfi though because i live in Europe and i'm not into international shipping for used stuff.

 

[audiobomber]

The exaSound e32 Mark II DAC and Sennheiser HD 800 and done! The designer told me he uses the HD 800 (along with loudspeakers) to voice the DAC. The headphone amp has plenty of power to handle this load with no external amp. I use the similarly specified DT 1990 Pro headphones and typically run at -30dB. I had the well-respected Benchmark DAC3 L (no headphone amp) in-house for a couple of weeks and found the exaSound had noticeably better sound, using both as a DAC/preamp only.

 

[Ryan Cao]

Good luck on your journey. It's a very fun and expensive one. It took me 4 months of discovery, listening to lots of alternatives and tinkering every element of sound in my system and I finally have what I think it the perfect set up for me. I have eclectic taste and started out low end so I could really appreciate value, then I worked my way up the value chain and ended up where I am now. After initially hating the sound of the Sennheiser HD800S, I finally paired it with the right amp and now it delivers the perfect sound for me optimized to all sorts of Classical music and Jazz. Oddly enough, it works for other genres, too. It's perfect. For $4000, you can get a killer system.

Can you share your setup? Thanks!

 

[HiFiHawaii808]

Can you share your setup? Thanks!

Sure.

Bluesound Node 2i Streamer > Schiit Modi Multibit DAC (via Optical cable) > Upgraded Bottlehead Crack (via RCA) > Sennheiser HD800S

Bottlehead Crack (with speedball), Mundorf Evo Oil Caps, Blue Alps Potentiometer, Western Electric 421A power tube, CBS Hytron 5814a input tube. I had to experiment with different cables, tubes and interfaces to the DAC to get the sound right. The capacitor upgrade was intended for sound stage and clarity. I didn't know what sound I really liked until I tried lots of options. I thought I liked a warm sound signature, but what I really like after months of experimentation is a grand sound stage, high levels of clarity, detail and resolution and a slight elevation of bass so that the sound is not bass light. I bought the Crack professionally built. I will probably upgrade the DAC to a Schiit Bifrost 2 (Bimby) as soon as I can find a deal on one.

 

[Eldair]

If i had 4k to spend i would go ZMF verite open, Feliks Audio Elise and Schiit Bifrost 2. Should be around 4k.

 

[ThanatosVI]

Well it's hard to make a proper recommendation. 4k budget makes quite the possibilities.

So do you also consider used gear or only new stuff?

Can you tell us stuff about your sound preferences, what do you like in particular (basshead, treblehead, vocals, stage etc.)

 

[surfgeorge]

Lots of good advice here.
My personal philosophy is that I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of trying many DACs and Amps for best synergy with my headphones. That's why I chose the CHORD Hugo 2 portable DAC/Amp, which IMO excells at accurate reproduction of the music, especially note definition and sound stage. I can rely on it being true to the music. With that part covered the choice of headphone provides the interpretation of the music.

The Arya, HD800S and Focal Clears are all great and widely available choices that have been mentioned several times.
HD800S excells at detail and soundstage, great for classical but maybe a little cold and thin for Rock and vocals.
Arya I found really nice, very clear, transparent and with a dark bass, might be a good all rounder for your music styles. Also has good soundstage.
I personally went for the Focal Clears because they are significantly cheaper while sounding on par, if different, to the Arya and HD800S. They sound very balanced/natural/coherent to me and are very versatile. They are not the best in soundstage and that ultimate clarity, but I really enjoy them with very similar music as your's, lots of classical, vocal, jazz, and a bit of classic Rock.
I wrote about the listening tests here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-hugo-2-the-official-thread.831345/post-15974430

That was my way to keep the effort and cost under control, hope it is useful information.
Very happy with the result.

 

[ThanatosVI]

There are many possibilities:

You could either go with a solid "price-performance" stack, like Schiit Bifrost+Jotunheim or Topping D90/A90. And then some used TotL like LCD-4, HekSE, Utopia, Empyrean, or new Arya
Or if you go for the "easy to drive" headphones, you can get something like an A&K Cube, as DAP and the Headphones.

Or if you want to aim for higher end used gear all the way then there are even options like Audiovalve Luminare (either pure amp, or with dac module) + flagship headphones

 

[Ryan Cao]

Thanks everyone for the great advice!

So here is my plan to start the journey:
- I'll buy used Topping A90/D90.
- For headphones, I'll purchase new HD650 and HD800s from Amazon. Based on tons of reviews, it's very likely I'll keep 650 and return 800s after some audition. If it turns out 800s is good fit for me, I'll probably still return it and find a used one

If anyone would like to sell your Topping A90/D90, please drop me a note. (I'll post another thread for this in the sales section, but it seems I have no right to post there yet. Need to figure it out).