NAD M51 Direct Digital DAC Impressions

[estreeter]

Guys, I've spent a bit of time mulling over the whole 'music server' thing, and wanted to share my priceless (!) thoughts -
 
- anyone who wants the 'best' homebrew server need only peruse the threads on Computer Audiophile to see just how much time and effort has been thrown at this, from Mac Mini solutions to the latest iteration of the CAPS server. From the basic 'buy this, install this, enjoy' recipes to some serious tweaking, it's all there for anyone who wants to go down that path and has the time to spend experimenting and, in some cases, freaking out when it all goes pear-shaped. No gain without pain, but be wary of one or two who seem to have a new 'Eureka !' moment with every machine they assemble.
 
- when someone like project86 tells me that his Auraliti does everything he wants from a music server, I take notice. Enough said.
 
- its easy to look at a commercial amp and say 'Man, that's $300 worth of parts selling for $2K !', but that's great for folks with 10 years of DiY experience, not so great for those of us who couldn't solder to save ourselves. I see the commercial music servers in the same light. The difference is that many of us have slapped together a PC before - how hard can it be, right ? Even worse for those of us who know our way around the Linux command line and can write code/scripts to automate various things. Suddenly we are the masters of the universe, convinced that we know more than the likes of Gordon Rankin and Co. For the tinkerers, this is the only way forward, and the hobby most definitely needs those folks, but for those who arent so keen on endless tinkering, there is something to be said for a small box which:
 
          -  does one job and one job only 
          -  never, and I mean never, requires a keyboard and mouse to be plugged into it
          -  is a 'black box' in the face of idle fingers which may feel duty-bound to upgrade their Linux distro/kernel or whatever on their homebrew solution
 
Long story short, I'm going to think of the M50 more as a very specialised CD transport than as a 'Linux box'. Just as I wouldnt pop open a CDT and start disassembling the internals, I have no intention of trying to dissect the inner workings of the M50. Anyone who has seen the tiny board inside will know that there isnt a whole lot of hardware - same deal as the sOTM USB board - so clearly I'm paying for whatever hours NAD have put into the software, and this is where the '$300 worth of parts in a 2K case' argument falls down IMO - it makes no allowance for the R&D needed to bring a product to market, particularly when it comes to jitter management. Unlike a CDT, however, many of us could do our own tweaking and build our own music server - choice is good - and ultimately it would be great to be able to audition the M50/W4S Music Server/Auraliti etc alongside a homebrew solution. I am also leery of the past firmware efforts of certain audio companies, but that seems to apply whether you pay $500 or $5000 - caveat emptor.  
 
I've used a Mac Mini previously and it is a great little device,  but I couldnt leave well enough alone and was soon using it for movies and general-purpose computing. Similarly, I started working on a machine that was going to be a dedicated music server, using Linux, then found myself writing Perl scripts to generate Lotto numbers - clearly, someone needs to save me from myself 

 

[Cante Ista]

Quote:

 
I believe I've inserted the 'not' you intended to use in that sentence. 

oops! yes, thank you 

 

[Cante Ista]

Quote:

Guys, I've spent a bit of time mulling over the whole 'music server' thing, and wanted to share my priceless (!) thoughts -
 
- anyone who wants the 'best' homebrew server need only peruse the threads on Computer Audiophile to see just how much time and effort has been thrown at this, from Mac Mini solutions to the latest iteration of the CAPS server. From the basic 'buy this, install this, enjoy' recipes to some serious tweaking, it's all there for anyone who wants to go down that path and has the time to spend experimenting and, in some cases, freaking out when it all goes pear-shaped. No gain without pain, but be wary of one or two who seem to have a new 'Eureka !' moment with every machine they assemble.
 
- when someone like project86 tells me that his Auraliti does everything he wants from a music server, I take notice. Enough said.
 
- its easy to look at a commercial amp and say 'Man, that's $300 worth of parts selling for $2K !', but that's great for folks with 10 years of DiY experience, not so great for those of us who couldn't solder to save ourselves. I see the commercial music servers in the same light. The difference is that many of us have slapped together a PC before - how hard can it be, right ? Even worse for those of us who know our way around the Linux command line and can write code/scripts to automate various things. Suddenly we are the masters of the universe, convinced that we know more than the likes of Gordon Rankin and Co. For the tinkerers, this is the only way forward, and the hobby most definitely needs those folks, but for those who arent so keen on endless tinkering, there is something to be said for a small box which:
 
          -  does one job and one job only 
          -  never, and I mean never, requires a keyboard and mouse to be plugged into it
          -  is a 'black box' in the face of idle fingers which may feel duty-bound to upgrade their Linux distro/kernel or whatever on their homebrew solution
 
Long story short, I'm going to think of the M50 more as a very specialised CD transport than as a 'Linux box'. Just as I wouldnt pop open a CDT and start disassembling the internals, I have no intention of trying to dissect the inner workings of the M50. Anyone who has seen the tiny board inside will know that there isnt a whole lot of hardware - same deal as the sOTM USB board - so clearly I'm paying for whatever hours NAD have put into the software, and this is where the '$300 worth of parts in a 2K case' argument falls down IMO - it makes no allowance for the R&D needed to bring a product to market, particularly when it comes to jitter management. Unlike a CDT, however, many of us could do our own tweaking and build our own music server - choice is good - and ultimately it would be great to be able to audition the M50/W4S Music Server/Auraliti etc alongside a homebrew solution. I am also leery of the past firmware efforts of certain audio companies, but that seems to apply whether you pay $500 or $5000 - caveat emptor.  
 
I've used a Mac Mini previously and it is a great little device,  but I couldnt leave well enough alone and was soon using it for movies and general-purpose computing. Similarly, I started working on a machine that was going to be a dedicated music server, using Linux, then found myself writing Perl scripts to generate Lotto numbers - clearly, someone needs to save me from myself 

Thank you for your thoughts! That are indeed helpful and put things in perspective (and are thus indeed priceless ). I hear ya on R&D costs. I wonder though, how much someone would have to spend on an analogue gear to get the same performance of the NAD stack playing lossless files. The reviewer brought this up and I think that is quite a statement b/c good turntables can  really deliver but top out much higher than digital gear so I wonder whether we are comparing here in relative terms (within certain price range) or absolute terms. 

 

[estreeter]

I doubt that the analog-vs-digital debate will end anytime soon, and I expect that most who have shelled out for the M51 have made their own decision, at least for now. Just as buying a tube amp can mean spending more than the purchase price on tubes to experiment with different combinations, I don't see buying a high-end turntable as the end of that journey either. Cartridges, phono stages, tonearms - it's good business to give your customers so many choices. Plenty of debates on AK as to which turntable to buy at a given price point - choose your poison/religion, but we are fooling ourselves if we think one choice or another will mean we can have an 'end-game' rig, at least IMO,
 
Perfect world, I'd have one of everything, but for now I'll remain in the digital camp. I was there when vinyl was the *only* real media and I see it all through considerably less rosy glasses, having lugged milkcrates full of vinyl from one abode to another. It gets old surprisingly quickly. 

 

[Cante Ista]

Quote:

I doubt that the analog-vs-digital debate will end anytime soon, and I expect that most who have shelled out for the M51 have made their own decision, at least for now. Just as buying a tube amp can mean spending more than the purchase price on tubes to experiment with different combinations, I don't see buying a high-end turntable as the end of that journey either. Cartridges, phono stages, tonearms - it's good business to give your customers so many choices. Plenty of debates on AK as to which turntable to buy at a given price point - choose your poison/religion, but we are fooling ourselves if we think one choice or another will mean we can have an 'end-game' rig, at least IMO,
 
Perfect world, I'd have one of everything, but for now I'll remain in the digital camp. I was there when vinyl was the *only* real media and I see it all through considerably less rosy glasses, having lugged milkcrates full of vinyl from one abode to another. It gets old surprisingly quickly. 

glad to hear you say that! wherever I post the question (digi vs analogue) always get the positive towards the analogue. I appreciate a perspective of someone who's been there done that. It was a nice Chill Pill as I have been researching analogue gear. Thanks! 

 

[preproman]

I'm in the process now of building the C.A.P.S. v3 (Just for Music).  I also use J. River on other dedicated PCs hooked up to TVs (Just for movies).  I don't think I'll ever go down the road of purchasing a commercial music server.  
 
I enjoy the building process and hand picking the parts of your choice.  I'm sure commercial devices has their advantages - it just seems like it comes at a much higher cost.  There's really some outrageous prices out there for music servers.  I guess it also comes down to what features you want and are able to get.  So far - J. river can do all the things I need it to do.

 

[Cante Ista]

Quote:

I'm in the process now of building the C.A.P.S. v3 (Just for Music).  I also use J. River on other dedicated PCs hooked up to TVs (Just for movies).  I don't think I'll ever go down the road of purchasing a commercial music server.  
 
I enjoy the building process and hand picking the parts of your choice.  I'm sure commercial devices has their advantages - it just seems like it comes at a much higher cost.  There's really some outrageous prices out there for music servers.  I guess it also comes down to what features you want and are able to get.  So far - J. river can do all the things I need it to do.

That sound cool Preproman!
I will def pick your brain about this. Unfortunately I have zero understanding about building computers and/or servers. But will def wonna hear about how you go about doing it. 

 

[preproman]

Quote:

That sound cool Preproman!
I will def pick your brain about this. Unfortunately I have zero understanding about building computers and/or servers. But will def wonna hear about how you go about doing it. 

 
Like estreeter said:  Here's where it started:  http://www.computeraudiophile.com/section/c-p-s-489/  You can pretty much use what ever case you want.  I like these cases as well.
 
http://atechfabrication.com/
 
 
 

 

[Cante Ista]

Quote:

 
Like estreeter said:  Here's where it started:  http://www.computeraudiophile.com/section/c-p-s-489/  You can pretty much use what ever case you want.  I like these cases as well.
 
http://atechfabrication.com/
 
 
 

nice! thanks! I have been on that site but my lock of technical knowledge in that area makes me a poor judge of whats good info and what's BS. Still. someday, when I have the time, I will buckle down and get smarter on these things. (fatherhood as flipped my world upside down. Some times I have not time to take a $#!t -- if you'd pardon my latin 

 

[preproman]

Quote:

nice! thanks! I have been on that site but my lock of technical knowledge in that area makes me a poor judge of whats good info and what's BS. Still. someday, when I have the time, I will buckle down and get smarter on these things. (fatherhood as flipped my world upside down. Some times I have not time to take a $#!t -- if you'd pardon my latin 

Also this:
 
http://shop.smallgreencomputer.com/Computer-Audiophile-Pocket-Server_c5.htm

 

[woodcans]

I doubt that the analog-vs-digital debate will end anytime soon, and I expect that most who have shelled out for the M51 have made their own decision, at least for now. Just as buying a tube amp can mean spending more than the purchase price on tubes to experiment with different combinations, I don't see buying a high-end turntable as the end of that journey either. Cartridges, phono stages, tonearms - it's good business to give your customers so many choices. Plenty of debates on AK as to which turntable to buy at a given price point - choose your poison/religion, but we are fooling ourselves if we think one choice or another will mean we can have an 'end-game' rig, at least IMO,

Perfect world, I'd have one of everything, but for now I'll remain in the digital camp. I was there when vinyl was the *only* real media and I see it all through considerably less rosy glasses, having lugged milkcrates full of vinyl from one abode to another. It gets old surprisingly quickly. 

x2 here. And the m51/Off Ramp 5/MBP/Amarra combo is what led me to sell off all of my analog gear. I now listen to music much more often and get much more enjoyiment out of it. I will say, in my younger days when I had free time, probably would have kept them both, but this digital is very, very good. And very musical.

 

[Cante Ista]

Thanks guys! Appreciate the insights

 

[Uncle00Jesse]

do setups including the OR5 or just a high end dac like the m51 show their benefits if the source material is mainly 320k MOG tracks? i do have some better flac recordings, however i do most of my listening with MOG. for the amount of artist swapping that i do while listening, i couldn't imagine having to buy each and every album. streaming services are absolutely amazing for me. i'm just trying to gauge whether moving up the dac pecking order would make a nice upgrade.

 

[estreeter]

Quote:

glad to hear you say that! wherever I post the question (digi vs analogue) always get the positive towards the analogue. I appreciate a perspective of someone who's been there done that. It was a nice Chill Pill as I have been researching analogue gear. Thanks! 

 
Yeah - I probably need to be a bit clearer, for the sake of any vinyl junkies out there who may be grinding their teeth. Back in the day, I had a 'record player' - it was a long way from the high-end turntables many of us lust after in 2013. Simply because I owned a lot of vinyl records, that doesnt make me an authority on analog rigs - far from it - I was merely commenting on the physical reality of having to cart and store that much plastic. I laugh when I see folk seriously debating whether a terabyte drive is enough to store their music collection, let alone video - I dont know know how many LPs that would equate to, but I can guarantee that you wouldnt want to hear the phrase 'moving day' ever again ...
 
One of the longtimers at TAS prefaced a review by saying that, in his experience, when you get to the bleeding edge of both analog and digital systems, the 'differences' become so minute that they aren't worth discussing. The problem for those of us who are nowhere near the bleeding edge is simple : when do I reach the point of diminishing returns with Rig A vs Rig B, and will I ever be happy with the sound coming from either rig ? Plenty of folk will tell you that a good SET amp hooked up to sensitive speakers and a 'decent' turntable from Rega or Thorens is all you will ever need - these same folk can often be found discussing their latest purchase online, or the merits of tube A over tube B - nothing wrong with any of that as long as people looking to get into analog realise that its highly unlikely that they will be happy with their first, or second, or fifth rig - its a journey.
 
Getting back to the M50/M51 combination - other than a little experimentation with power cords and interconnects, what are you going to do to improve on a combination like that ? A better rack ? Vibrapods ? Rewire your entire house ? I suspect that most folk will simply plug them in, get their music onto the M50 and start listening : spending valuable time wondering whether the end result is better or worse than you would have gotten for the same amount thrown at a turntable+cartridge+phono stage is, IMO, self defeating. When you buy a turntable, it will have a given level of performance - you may improve on that performance by replacing various parts, but none of it is software-upgradeable : NAD and others are offering the prospect of future upgrades for nothing more than the cost of a download. Exactly how that will pan out in reality is anyone's guess - Oppo have certainly had their ups and downs in terms of firmware upgrades, but I can also see some real upsides to the new model of 'buy now, upgrade later, all without ever having to ship the box back to us'.
 
Finally, if you did buy the M50/M51 combination and it wasnt what you were looking for, would it be especially hard to sell it and move on ? I'm guessing that it would be no more difficult than selling a 3-month old Rega turntable - at least the NAD components have no moving parts, and you dont have to convince prospective buyers that your aftermarket cartridge is a good choice for that particular Rega.

 

[Cante Ista]

Quote:

 
Yeah - I probably need to be a bit clearer, for the sake of any vinyl junkies out there who may be grinding their teeth. Back in the day, I had a 'record player' - it was a long way from the high-end turntables many of us lust after in 2013. Simply because I owned a lot of vinyl records, that doesnt make me an authority on analog rigs - far from it - I was merely commenting on the physical reality of having to cart and store that much plastic. I laugh when I see folk seriously debating whether a terabyte drive is enough to store their music collection, let alone video - I dont know know how many LPs that would equate to, but I can guarantee that you wouldnt want to hear the phrase 'moving day' ever again ...
 
One of the longtimers at TAS prefaced a review by saying that, in his experience, when you get to the bleeding edge of both analog and digital systems, the 'differences' become so minute that they aren't worth discussing. The problem for those of us who are nowhere near the bleeding edge is simple : when do I reach the point of diminishing returns with Rig A vs Rig B, and will I ever be happy with the sound coming from either rig ? Plenty of folk will tell you that a good SET amp hooked up to sensitive speakers and a 'decent' turntable from Rega or Thorens is all you will ever need - these same folk can often be found discussing their latest purchase online, or the merits of tube A over tube B - nothing wrong with any of that as long as people looking to get into analog realise that its highly unlikely that they will be happy with their first, or second, or fifth rig - its a journey.
 
Getting back to the M50/M51 combination - other than a little experimentation with power cords and interconnects, what are you going to do to improve on a combination like that ? A better rack ? Vibrapods ? Rewire your entire house ? I suspect that most folk will simply plug them in, get their music onto the M50 and start listening : spending valuable time wondering whether the end result is better or worse than you would have gotten for the same amount thrown at a turntable+cartridge+phono stage is, IMO, self defeating. When you buy a turntable, it will have a given level of performance - you may improve on that performance by replacing various parts, but none of it is software-upgradeable : NAD and others are offering the prospect of future upgrades for nothing more than the cost of a download. Exactly how that will pan out in reality is anyone's guess - Oppo have certainly had their ups and downs in terms of firmware upgrades, but I can also see some real upsides to the new model of 'buy now, upgrade later, all without ever having to ship the box back to us'.
 
Finally, if you did buy the M50/M51 combination and it wasnt what you were looking for, would it be especially hard to sell it and move on ? I'm guessing that it would be no more difficult than selling a 3-month old Rega turntable - at least the NAD components have no moving parts, and you dont have to convince prospective buyers that your aftermarket cartridge is a good choice for that particular Rega.

I TOTALLY hear ya! That totally makes sense. the NAD stack is my next purchase. Just kidding! but seriously, this really makes sense -- thank you!