[mulveling]

As per my previous thread, I've been thinking about acquiring a pair of floorstanders in the $2.5K - $4.5K range. This was the result of hearing a Legacy Signature III based speaker setup (total cost > $20K) that sounded AWESOME - certainly better then my L3000 headphone rig.

Last night I went to HiFi buys to audition their best. Surprisingly, they had a nice room with a $2.5K Krell integrated and a $4K Krell CD/SACD player (they used to have a wall of HT receivers with an electronic switching control). The speakers were Martin Logan Aeon i ($3.3K) and Focal/JMLab Profile 918 ($4K). No switchers or such nonsense; the sales rep had to physically move the cables between speakers (I'm pretty sure he didn't hook 'em up out of phase either

). The room was not perfect acoustically, but it wasn't bad either. I brought my own CDs: Krall Live in Paris, K. D. Lang Ingenue, Jethro Tull The Broadsword and the Beast. Everything seemed in place for a killer listening experience. Wrong. Now, these speakers didn't sound bad at all, but they didn't impress either.

The Martin Logans were the first up; Krall's & Lang's vocals had a good presence, but they kind of fell apart a little when the music got busy and complex - the detail & separation wasn't there. Plus the vocals weren't as smooth as expected. As expected, the bass wasn't mind blowing. Overall the ML has sort of a dryness to its sound.

The JMLab Profile sounded better at first (w/ Krall) - it was a smoother, more liquid and dynamic sound. However, not by much. Bass was still unsatisfying. Again, the detail and separation was not there during busy passages. When I put in Jethro Tull, some instruments just sounded flat out wrong - I know these things sound so much more real on my L3000 rig.

I went home and listened to the same CDs on my Polk LSi15 setup (Denon 2910 -> Denon 3805 -> Outlaw M200 x2 -> Polk LSi15 & Hsu STF2 - and my room is worse than HiFi Buys'). The LSi15 are $1700/pair and the STF2 sub is $400. Honestly there is no point in upgrading to the Logans or Focal speakers - the LSi15 is on a similar level (or at least close) and even does some things better (though piano is not one of those things). I think I've been taking these Polks LSi's for granted a bit - I definitely want better, but it may not be as easy or affordable as I originally though.

I ended the night listening to my L3000 rig (see sig), now THAT was pure bliss compared to those speakers. Detail, tonality, and dynamics were nailed by the L3000 relative to tonight's speakers. Bass was soooo much more extended, articulate, powerful, and satisfying. Sound was in the head as to be expected from headphones, but everything else more than made up for that

Well, The Martin Logans are off the short list, and JMLabs won't be considered either. Speaker audio is so much more complex. The Sig III -based system I heard was clearly a cut above my L3000 rig, which made me think it would be relatively easy to put together a speaker rig at about $6K (minus source) that at least equalled or approached the L3000 rig. Didn't hear that tonight - they were at least a cut below the L3000.

After talking with a friend, he's starting to convince me that Sig III - level speakers are probably overkill for my living room situation anyways. At this point I'd settle for something I enjoy more than the LSi15/Denon/Outlaw rig (which I do enjoy, just not quite enough

). I'm still holding out hope for the Legacy Classic and Tannoy Eyris DC3, maybe with something like a nice PS Audio amp. I guess at worst I could just upgrade to the LSi25 (would be cheap due to an upgrade option) and get a better amp - I know I like those more than the 15's. We'll see...

Just wanted to post my thoughts out there

 

[mattigol]

thanks for your thoughts. keep in mind you have an exceptional rig in front of your L3k. It's not entirely impossible that the Krell combo had something to do with the shortcomings you mention. I am not sure what to recommend - I haven't looked into speakers for maybe 5 years. B&W still makes some fine floorstanders and so do AudioPhysic. Have you checked places like audiocircle? Maybe instead of introducing another variable by looking for another speaker amp, Mikhail will do a custom SDSi ("i" for integrated amp) for you at 1 or 2k extra.

 

[J@ck]

I really like the VS VR4 jr. This is one of the top speakers I really like under $4K or so.
If you like bass and have a big room, the VR4 sr. might be even better.

http://www.vonschweikert.com/vr4jr.html

 

[aerius]

Since we both own a K340 I think we can use that as a common reference point. I've been speaker "shopping" myself just to keep up to date on the new stuff and for the most part I've been rather disappointed.

Haven't heard the Aeon i, but I heard the Clarity which is the one below it. Pretty much agree with your assessment except that this thing had even less bass and it didn't blend that well. There was definitely some weirdness where the bass drivers cross over to the electrostatic panel, and the sound in general was "bleh". Too dry, little bass decay, it was pretty uninvolving.

Also auditioned a couple Sonus Fabers, the Concerto and the Grand Piano. In terms of tone they're rather similar to my K340, rich in the midrange, a bit rolled off on top, bit heavy down low, but they're nowhere near as fast in the bass, and overall they lack dynamics. The Grand Piano has a smoother & more dynamic midrange than the Concerto which makes acoustic guitars ring out better & sound more complete. To me they're both too warm & slow, kinda like the stereotypical warm & fuzzy tube amp sound. Great for some music, but when the pace picks up and things get busy, they become somewhat lost.

Another one was the Dynaudio Audience 72 SE. Yuck. And I thought the Sennheiser veil was bad, this thing was like sticking one of those big thick theatre curtains in front of a speaker. It literally put me to sleep, I was convinced they were broken but the sales guy said they were supposed to sound like that.

So what did I like? The B&W 804S. Driven from an all Classé Delta series front end, the sound was somewhere between a K340 and Grado HP-1000. It doesn't have the full tonal richness of a K340 run on tube gear, nor does it have the speed & cleanness of the HP-1000 in the bass, it's sort of a mix between the two. There's plenty of bass & there's good punch to it, but it's not the last word in instrument & note separation down there. Probably about the same as my K340. Midrange was the best balanced of the speakers I heard. Not as warm as the K340, but in terms of detail & separation it was at least as good. Highs were nice, better extension & detail than my K340 without getting harsh. Also had the best rhythm & drive, kinda reminds of Grados that way.

Also if you have the space & the amps to drive them, take a listen to the Apogee Scintilla if you can find them. They're long discontinued & the company's out of business but they sound awesome. The bass & midrange on those is really something special and I haven't heard anything else match it. Smooth, detailed, dynamic, and powerful, it's like the speakers aren't even trying. But you need an amp rated for a 1 Ohm load, that's a bit hard to find.

 

[Joey_V]

Heard all the speakers mentioned on this thread (minus the Legacy Sig III).

Von Schweikert VR4jr - very disappointed in this speaker. TOO artificial with the top end and not very controlled at high volumes. Very good bass though, both in output and extension. However, the vocals didnt sound right and was overly sibilant in passages which werent supposed to be. Brought my other audiophile friend along, he was not impressed at all. Rating: 2.5/5

Martin Logan Aeon - good starter electrostat. Much better than the Clarity both in presentation and overall dynamics. However, it is a little bit too forward with the vocals and a little too weak in the midbass and midrange presentation. Also, as mulveling mentioned, a little compressed when turned up in volume... not exceptional separation but very good still. Expected more out of a $3300 speaker. Rating: 3/5

JM Labs 918 Focal Be - solid speaker and solid presentation. I felt that this is better than the LSi series (I had the 9s and I listened to the 15s in store). How much better? Only your ears can tell. To me, they were significantly better when it came to bass transients and vocal presentation. I felt that it was a little bit more vocally "palpable" yet still had an airy ambience to it. Rating: 4/5

Martin Logan Vantage - very very solid speaker. I liked it's open and airy feel to the notes, not to mention the ease at which it plays at louder (90+ db) volume. I like the improvement in bass over the Aeon and the better balance throughout the sonic presentation... no longer overemphasizing the vocals while sacrificing the midrange as the Aeons did. Very good separation and very good imaging (especially since it is a line source and interacts less with the room relative to conventional point source speakers). Rating 4.75/5

Sonus Faber Concerto/Concertino - good speaker with a luscious midrange and very good dispersion off-axis. I liked this speaker. Very good midrange and superb transient bass dynamics. I also liked the "non-boxy" sound that this speaker had relative to my previous Polk LSi9 speakers. However, its only weakness is male vocals. I felt that it sounded a little "synthesized".. basically, guy vocals (to me) didnt sound like they came from guys anymore. Rating 3/5

BW 804S - Bland looking speaker with a relatively bass anemic presentation. The vocals were sibilant in passages by Dave Matthews and the speaker didnt hold together very well at loud volumes. Ok speaker but not for the price. I expected more from a $4000 speaker. The JM Labs 918 was better in my mind. Rating 3.5/5

 

[tom hankins]

Mike, I compared the VR4jr to the Legacy Classics and thought the Classics to be far better. They dont give up all that much to the Sig IIIs. They are easy to drive and have BASS to die for. At one time I used them in a very small room on the long wall (12X14 with 7.5' ceilings), with no problems. Amp was a Parasound HCA 3500 and source was a Rega Jupiter 2K. Have you considered your amp yet?
Also, I should have my table all set up and finished by the end of next week. We will have to get Purk and all get together and spin some vinyl.

 

[aerius]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joey_V Martin Logan Vantage - very very solid speaker. I liked it's open and airy feel to the notes, not to mention the ease at which it plays at louder (90+ db) volume. I like the improvement in bass over the Aeon and the better balance throughout the sonic presentation... no longer overemphasizing the vocals while sacrificing the midrange as the Aeons did. Very good separation and very good imaging (especially since it is a line source and interacts less with the room relative to conventional point source speakers). Rating 4.75/5

Have you heard the Prodigy or the old QuestZ/ReQuest speakers? If so, how do you think the Vantage compares to those? I'm still waiting for someone in the Toronto area to get some Vantage or Summits in stock so I can check them out.

Quote:

Sonus Faber Concerto/Concertino - good speaker with a luscious midrange and very good dispersion off-axis. I liked this speaker. Very good midrange and superb transient bass dynamics. I also liked the "non-boxy" sound that this speaker had relative to my previous Polk LSi9 speakers. However, its only weakness is male vocals. I felt that it sounded a little "synthesized".. basically, guy vocals (to me) didnt sound like they came from guys anymore. Rating 3/5

Agree with the male vocals, male singers with strong voices sounded kinda wussy. They sounded more like metrosexuals than big hairy men with too much testosterone. Disagree though on bass dynamics, there's plenty of bass but I found it to be slow & rather out of control. For instance, bass drum hits in "Little Amsterdam" by Tori Amos should be fast & tight with good impact, a good solid "THUMP". With the Concerto it was more like a "THEWAFOOMPH", not quite that bad but you get the idea.

Quote:

BW 804S - Bland looking speaker with a relatively bass anemic presentation. The vocals were sibilant in passages by Dave Matthews and the speaker didnt hold together very well at loud volumes. Ok speaker but not for the price. I expected more from a $4000 speaker. The JM Labs 918 was better in my mind. Rating 3.5/5

Classé gear is definitely on the warm forgiving side for solid state so that's probably the difference. For curiosity's sake I did try them with a budget Rotel amp and noticed sibilance & a lack of fullness in the bass with that setup. Never cranked them though since I listen at pretty low volumes and have enough hearing damage as it is.

 

[clarke68]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mulveling my room is worse than HiFi Buys...Honestly there is no point in upgrading to the Logans or Focal speakers - the LSi15 is on a similar level (or at least close) and even does some things better (though piano is not one of those things). I think I've been taking these Polks LSi's for granted a bit - I definitely want better, but it may not be as easy or affordable as I originally though.

Your room is as much a part of a speaker system as the speakers themselves. You're going to have a tough time hearing improvements in any speaker upgrade until you deal with your room.

There's two free issues of The Audio Perfectionist available online that have good suggestions for room treatments. (fwiw, I think this guy is coming from the right place, but ultimately his opinions should be taken with a generous amount of salt).

You may find that room treatments that will be effective for your situation are impossible to live with (e.g. if you don't want to live in a recording studio) in which case you can save your money on speaker upgrades. On the other hand, if you're able to improve your room enough, you may find you don't need to upgrade.

That said, the best speakers I've ever heard were the Linkwitz Orions, in the $7-8000 range (depending on finish), but that includes cables and the 8 channels of amplification you need to run them.

 

[Sleestack]

For those with impossible rooms, I highly recommend looking at TACT's room corrections solutions. I use their RCS2.2x and TCSMKII/ADC6 and am about to go all digital with their digital amps. I've discovered room correction and can never go back.

As far as speakers go, I have yet to hear a pair of Martin Logans that I liked. They all sound brittle on the high end and a bit thin on the low end for me.

Anyone have any thoughts on the Wilson Audio Watt Puppies?

 

[aerius]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleestack Anyone have any thoughts on the Wilson Audio Watt Puppies?

One of the most over-rated speakers in history. Hi-fi magazines circle-jerk over them like there's no tomorrow. Save your money and get the Sophias.

 

[Sleestack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerius One of the most over-rated speakers in history. Hi-fi magazines circle-jerk over them like there's no tomorrow. Save your money and get the Sophias.

Actually, I'm overloaded with speakers right now, but I was wondering about them b/c I have never heard them but heard much about them. They are a bit too odd looking to ever pass the WAF anyway.

 

[mulveling]

aerius and Joey_V,
Thanks for sharing your speaker impressions, good stuff - even if there was a little disagreement

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hankins Mike, I compared the VR4jr to the Legacy Classics and thought the Classics to be far better. They dont give up all that much to the Sig IIIs. They are easy to drive and have BASS to die for. At one time I used them in a very small room on the long wall (12X14 with 7.5' ceilings), with no problems. Amp was a Parasound HCA 3500 and source was a Rega Jupiter 2K. Have you considered your amp yet? Also, I should have my table all set up and finished by the end of next week. We will have to get Purk and all get together and spin some vinyl.

Excellent, the Classics are gaining appeal. More size manageable than the Sig III's and cheaper too. I've only looked a little at amps - the Parasound and PS Audio offerings look good. I'd assume a Parasound stereo amp would pair nicely with the Classics? I can't afford the killer JC-1 monoblocks, but around $2K-$3K (new or used) for an amp could be do-able. The PS audio GCC series is tempting because they eliminate the need for a preamp. I heard the older PS audio amps with the Tannoys and there seemed to be good synergy there, too. So I'm currently most interested in:

Classics + Parasound or PS Audio amp
Eyris DC 3 + PS Audio amp (audition at local audio shop - Audio Atlanta)

Can't wait to finally hear some vinyl - especially in that rig! It took about a week for my ears to "recover" last time (as in getting used to mortal audio gear again), hope it's not any longer this time around

Quote:

Your room is as much a part of a speaker system as the speakers themselves. You're going to have a tough time hearing improvements in any speaker upgrade until you deal with your room.

It's true that I'm inexperienced, but my gut tells me the transducer is the still the most important element (not that the room isn't 2nd most important). Diana Krall in a terrible room will still sound way WAY better than my singing in an acoustically perfect room

I don't think my room is bad enough to not realize improvements over the LSi15s, but that remains to be seen. If my room were really bad the LSi15 wouldn't have been able to hang with the JMLab/MLs, which were auditioned in a better room. If worst comes to worst I either move or get my sister to fix up the basement and move my hifi into there

I'm not for EQ'ing, so that's out.

 

[rsaavedra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mulveling Diana Krall in a terrible room will still sound way WAY better than my singing in an acoustically perfect room

Compare apples and apples. Diana Krall will sound better in an acoustically friendly room than in an acoustically terrible room, independently of how badly you sing

Her voice in a terrible room might sound "better" than your voice obviously just because her voice is just more pleasant (nothing personal against yours hey

). In a similar way, a performance of Mozart's Requiem might move someone infinitely more, even if coming from a 64kbps mp3 file playing through Ipod buds, compared to let's say a well made SACD recording of someone caughing and sneezing played in a flagship hifi system. The fact that in such terrible equipment and conditions Mozart stills sounds "nicer" or "better" is a matter of better music, not better sound reproduction. Enjoying Mozart better than the sneezing doesn't make 64kbps mp3's at all competitive with SACD, or Ipod buds competitive with flagship hifi systems.

 

[Joey_V]

Mulveling,

If you really like the Sig 3... you may as well get them or you will regret it if you ever went with another speaker. I havent heard the Sig3 so I cant help you there. However, from the speakers I heard, I preferred the Vantage by a a measureable amount.

To Aerius,

I have heard most of the current generation of Logans:

Mosaic
Clarity
Aeon
Ascent
Oddysey
Vantage
Summit

By far, the best are the Summits with the Vantage right on its tail (like so close that I would put myself in an asylum if I spent $10K instead of the $5K for that slight sonic improvement). I DIDNT like the Ascent (even when they had it on clearance for $2700, I didnt find it tempting), I didnt like the Oddysey (especially at the $6K mark), I didnt like the Clarity (especially at the $3K mark).

I thought the Ascents were very sibilant and overly bright. I didnt think they were natural or neutral because the vocals were once again - overemphasized.... it's house sound was shared by the Oddysey (same panel but better bass module) and the Aeon (to an extent). However, the Aeon is far cheaper, which is why I sort of like it.

I havent heard the Prodigy, but I heard that it is supposed to be killer - although the Summits are far better balanced (not to mention far better looking) according to many ML afficionados online.

Regarding the 804's sibilance, Rotels are ever so slightly dark sounding so the BW should've been tamed, but they werent. We were using the Digital Rotel amps (supposed to be as good as some Class A amps by Krell and Levinson).

 

[purk]

Mike,
Sound like you are heading toward the Legacy Classic. I have the Paradigm Ref 100 V.3, and you are welcome any time to listen to mine. I have similar room problem. Tom told me that room plays significant role in speaker setup, so don't over look that.

Purk