Multiple gauge wire inside a cable?
Feb 26, 2018 at 7:39 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 59

Allanmarcus

Headphoneus Supremus
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Hello,

Monoprice sells a rebranded Ethereal cable that MP is called the Monolith cable. The MP cable has 4 different wires for + and 4 more for common in the cable.

I'be build 8 and 16 core headphones cables, but generally with the same wire. I just assumed I was getting lower gauge wire by combining wire. Mostly I did it for looks.

Pangea sells an AC-14 power cable that I was told the following about:

These are constructed using multi-gauge strands of high purity copper conductors. Electrical power is comprised of a range of frequencies where each range, bass, treble and midrange values, travel along the optimal AWG wire gauge for each respective range. Frequencies can also be identified by their radial displacement from "0" zero degrees expressed as cycles. Thus, heavy wire is good for bass where incrementally smaller gauges are ideal for mid and high frequency content with the result being a more accurate spectral characteristic.

I was thinking of building some RCA cables with that include different materials and gauge wire, but not if it's a waste of time. Any thoughts on having copper, silver, solid core, litz, and stranded wire of the different gauges in the same cable?

Thanks,

Allan
 
Feb 26, 2018 at 8:29 PM Post #2 of 59
What's wrong with a regular RCA cable? How long of a run do you plan?
 
Feb 26, 2018 at 8:54 PM Post #3 of 59
Hello,

Monoprice sells a rebranded Ethereal cable that MP is called the Monolith cable. The MP cable has 4 different wires for + and 4 more for common in the cable.

I'be build 8 and 16 core headphones cables, but generally with the same wire. I just assumed I was getting lower gauge wire by combining wire. Mostly I did it for looks.

Pangea sells an AC-14 power cable that I was told the following about:



I was thinking of building some RCA cables with that include different materials and gauge wire, but not if it's a waste of time. Any thoughts on having copper, silver, solid core, litz, and stranded wire of the different gauges in the same cable?

Thanks,

Allan
Ac 14 appears to be power cable..14 gauge wire is way heavy for interconect use and although well insulated it is likely not not shielded for rfi ect.Also different frequencies dont differentiate between wire sizes..its electricity..it will all take the path of least resistance.
 
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Feb 26, 2018 at 9:05 PM Post #4 of 59
Ok folks. The AC-14 is a power cable. yes. The mono price cable is an RCA interconnect. I'm not comparing the two cables.

I'm pointed out that both these cables use multiple wire of difference gauges in the cable itself, ostensibly to provide a better path for the whole frequency spectrum. I'm not sure what the frequency spectrum has to do with a power cable, but I was just using it as an example of such a cable.

What's wrong with a "regular" RCA cable? I have many. I've also made some solid core silver ones. Why? Because I got some solid core silver at a good price, and I wanted to make some cables :) I made some solid core silver cables for various headphones, and there where differences. In one case, the Utopia, the cable make it sound horrible. I reterminated the cable for the PMx2, and I really liked the sound from the PMx2 with the silver cable. I made a hybrid copper/silver cable cable for the Utiopa, and I like it.

Back to RCA cables. I could not hear any difference between the silver cables I made and some basic Bluejeans cables I have. A friend, on his turntable, big ass amp, and maggies, felt the silver cables sounded different. We didn't blind test; I was there, and there is no good way to do that with his system.

So, back to the original question, which is a science question (an academic question). I'm just curious; is there anything to the theory that various gauges and types of wire in the same cable can allow a better path for the signal? Thanks.
 
Feb 27, 2018 at 1:50 AM Post #5 of 59
Ac 14 appears to be power cable..14 gauge wire is way heavy for interconect use and although well insulated it is likely not not shielded for rfi ect.Also different frequencies dont differentiate between wire sizes..its electricity..it will all take the path of least resistance.
Yup, it's not a filter to divide up the spectrum. Just a multi-strand cabling. They are basically doing what Monster cable were reknown for doing, creating an illusion of something seem technical that is not really. They make vague statements by using the word like "optimization" for bass and midrange. These wording creates expectation bias of the listener. Like when they state "provide maximum treble definition without harshness."

When they state patented technology, they make it sound like there is something novel going on there. Anybody can patent stuff in terms of how things are structured in terms of materials to distinguish from other things made differently.

So, Monoprice once known for alternative to Monster cables have now chosen to do the same.
 
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Feb 27, 2018 at 2:21 AM Post #6 of 59
What's wrong with a "regular" RCA cable? I have many. I've also made some solid core silver ones. Why? Because I got some solid core silver at a good price, and I wanted to make some cables :) I made some solid core silver cables for various headphones, and there where differences.
Generally, I find that I make more significant improvements if I identify the problem first and then look for a way to solve it. Random swapping results in random results.

I'm curious about the testing procedure you used when you detected a difference with silver cables. You did a direct A/B switched line level matched blind comparison, right? We get to ask you that question in this forum because here we know the power of expectation bias and placebo effect.

OSo, back to the original question, which is a science question (an academic question). I'm just curious; is there anything to the theory that various gauges and types of wire in the same cable can allow a better path for the signal? Thanks.

No. Cables either function to spec or they don't. Inferior cables can only degrade sound quality, but you have to wander a long way into out of spec to get into that territory with a cable that is less than a few hundred feet long.
 
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Feb 27, 2018 at 5:40 AM Post #7 of 59
if the signal goes through the easiest path, given the power we can expect in a RCA usage, then F the rest. we're done.
if somehow the signal shares the wires and we do get one that will... IDK, attenuate the bass less, and one that will attenuate the midrange less, or make the treble non harsh, or whatever lolilol story they try to sell, well it's real simple: we're in the analog domain, to have 2 wires outputting 2 different signals with different responses, you'll also have different phase shifts. the time smearing patrol is already in the streets asking for the creator to be trialed as a witch.

luckily I expect this to have no impact aside from the global gauge/insulation, and to go down in history as the most ineffective crossover design ever imagined.
 
Feb 27, 2018 at 6:01 AM Post #8 of 59
Pangea sells an AC-14 power cable that I was told the following about: "Electrical power is comprised of a range of frequencies where each range, bass, treble and midrange values..."

Huh? My electrical power is comprised of just one frequency (50Hz), there is no bass, treble and midrange values of a single frequency.

G
 
Feb 27, 2018 at 7:56 AM Post #9 of 59
So, back to the original question, which is a science question (an academic question). I'm just curious; is there anything to the theory that various gauges and types of wire in the same cable can allow a better path for the signal? Thanks.

Theoretically there's the issue of inductance and capacitance. So theoretically it might be beneficial to use higher gauge wire for high frequencies and lower gauge wire for low frequencies.
 
Feb 27, 2018 at 9:35 AM Post #10 of 59
Monoprice typically has 25-30% off every week or two

I'm curious about the testing procedure you used when you detected a difference with silver cables. You did a direct A/B switched line level matched blind comparison, right? We get to ask you that question in this forum because here we know the power of expectation bias and placebo effect.

As I state earlier, wrt to the RCA cables, we didn't do any A/B blind testing. Too hard. I could not hear a different on my system. My friend did on his. I take with a grain of salt and just like how the RCA cables I built look. I make no other claims.

WRT to the Utopia, there is no way one person can do bling testing. I certainly did A/B testing, and it was clear that even though I wanted the silver cables to sound better with the Utopia, there was a clear difference in sound. It truly sounded awful compared to the copper cables I built, as well as the stick cable. That is why I reterminated it. I don't have the right measuring equipment to measure the not so subtle differences, and I already changed the cable. As for it sounding better on the PMx2, I would say it sounds the same as the stock cable, and it's possible the copper cables I'm made with Mogami wire sound a little mushy or warm. No scientific way to prove that with only one person. A/B testing of cable is hard enough. Blind testing is even harder. Note that I generally cannot hear a difference between cables. I'm compared my DIY cables to the best from other vendors, and to stock, and generally I cannot hear a difference.

Theoretically there's the issue of inductance and capacitance. So theoretically it might be beneficial to use higher gauge wire for high frequencies and lower gauge wire for low frequencies.

Is inductance and capacitance directly proportional to wire gauge? Would the materials used int he wire also affect these values? Would the dielectric and possible the insolation?
 
Feb 27, 2018 at 10:25 AM Post #11 of 59
Theoretically there's the issue of inductance and capacitance. So theoretically it might be beneficial to use higher gauge wire for high frequencies and lower gauge wire for low frequencies.
Can you provide a cable measurement graph that is non-linear enough to effect the tranducers in audibility? Also, can you explain by theoritical? Are we talking about realistic(significant enough) capacitance and inductance values of cables in regards to theoritically?
 
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Feb 27, 2018 at 10:57 AM Post #12 of 59
As I state earlier, wrt to the RCA cables, we didn't do any A/B blind testing. Too hard. I could not hear a different on my system. My friend did on his. I take with a grain of salt and just like how the RCA cables I built look. I make no other claims.

WRT to the Utopia, there is no way one person can do bling testing. I certainly did A/B testing, and it was clear that even though I wanted the silver cables to sound better with the Utopia, there was a clear difference in sound. It truly sounded awful compared to the copper cables I built, as well as the stick cable. That is why I reterminated it. I don't have the right measuring equipment to measure the not so subtle differences, and I already changed the cable. As for it sounding better on the PMx2, I would say it sounds the same as the stock cable, and it's possible the copper cables I'm made with Mogami wire sound a little mushy or warm. No scientific way to prove that with only one person. A/B testing of cable is hard enough. Blind testing is even harder. Note that I generally cannot hear a difference between cables. I'm compared my DIY cables to the best from other vendors, and to stock, and generally I cannot hear a difference.



Is inductance and capacitance directly proportional to wire gauge? Would the materials used int he wire also affect these values? Would the dielectric and possible the insolation?
No, resistance is varies in proportion to wire gauge. Inductance increases as conductors (or groups of conductors) are separated (insulation dielectric has no effect on inductance), capacitance decrease as conductors are separated, increases as they are brought closer to each other, and insulation dielectric properties have an effect. But the resulting impedance changes caused by capacitance and inductance are combined with wire resistance, and only cause an audible effect when the result creates a frequency variable attenuator when terminated with a low impedance load. And never happens with audio interconnects, very rarely in speaker wires. There have been wires with deliberately high inductance (those wires where two conductors are separated about a foot apart), and high capacitance, and yes these can be audible. But you could do the same thing with a capacitor or fixed inductor...or better yet, with a DSP, as it's just a simple filter.

But the multiple wire gauge "theory" isn't about any of that, it's referencing a real property of AC signal propagation over conductors called "skin effect", where progressively higher frequencies travel more on towards the surface of the conductor, less toward the middle. The property is real, calculable, and measurable, but also a complete non-issue in audio, unless you're dealing with very long cables carrying high currents, like speakers. And, oddly, larger gauge wires exhibit skin effects more readily than smaller ones, because smaller wire has higher resistance which swamps all skin effects, and it because of its smaller size has less differential between skin conductivity and conductor body conductivity.

The short story is, there is absolutely no advantage to multiple conductor size wire cores in RCA interconnects because the wire gauges involved are all too tiny to have any differential skin effect at audio frequencies, and...and this is key...the load at the receiving end is far too light for any of this to create a frequency dependent voltage divider.

You can run into skin effect issues with large wire gauge, and very long runs at speaker level. But note that for skin effect to be a problem at audio frequencies it must present enough impedance change that the result becomes an audible difference caused by the impedance and the load. So sure, 20kHz through a 10ga wire uses only 68% of the total conductor cross section, where 20Hz uses 100%, but the resistance of 10ga wire is already so low that a 32% change at 20kHz is meaningless. Multiple conductor sizes makes no sense for power cable other than to provide a degree of flexibility. But general stranded wire does that even better (and cheaper).

Oh, BTW, these guys explain it better than I. Note that 22ga wire at 20kHz uses 100% of the conductor. A more complete chart of the properties of wire sizes is found here.

One more note about comparing wires. Sorry, ABX testing is absolutely necessary, and yes, it's difficult (read: expensive). One person can do it, though. You need an ABX comparator, a switching device that permits the swapping of devices (including wires), and presents the tester with an A, B, and X choice where X is either A or B, but randomized, and not known until testing is complete and results are compiled. These things are available, and cost somewhat less than the most expensive wire in the world. Mine was made in the early 1980s, no longer available, but it has been used to test wire. Except for the deliberate high L and C junk, there is no audible difference between wires of the same gauge used for speakers, and no difference in interconnects (again, excluding the deliberately goofy ones, badly made, or excessively lone ones). The effects of wire on audio have been studied to death, yet the lunatic fringe still remains and offers weird wire for sale.
 
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Feb 27, 2018 at 11:12 AM Post #13 of 59
The short story is, there is absolutely advantage to multiple conductor size wire cores in RCA interconnects because the wire gauges involved are all too tiny to have any differential skin effect at audio frequencies, and...and this is key...the load at the receiving end is far too light for any of this to create a frequency dependent voltage divider.
can I assume that we're missing a little "no" in this sentence? ^_^
 
Feb 27, 2018 at 11:14 AM Post #14 of 59
One person can do it, though.

Thanks for the great explanation. As for abx testing abheadohknr cable, I don’t think one person and blind test. Also, I’m not sure how you can abx test an rca cable since the only way to listen to it directly is direct point to point wiring. I suppose if you had two of everything, and they were identical, you could swift help between the final outputs.
 
Feb 27, 2018 at 11:18 AM Post #15 of 59
Only times I can see "wires" effecting audibility is when the tranducer impedance response come close to the "wire"s resistance. Either speakers or BA iems with dipping impedance response relatively close with cables of significant resistance. Expensive cables mean nothing in sound quality, it's all subjective in how listener perceives what is there or not. Electrically, parameters are well known are interacting, and it's question of significance of the parameter for the situation. If if there is truth to it, it's simply the electrical impedance parameters that accounts for it.
 
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