[aamefford]

Sigh. Could we please cool it on the plug wars? Dan has stated he is open to sourcing the Stax plug if it makes sense for his operation. If not, he will move forward with an alternate plug.

Some will be ok with this. Some won't. If you are not ok with a different plug, you probably shouldn't buy these headphones.

As to the connector comments on both sides, we get it already.....

 

[Arthrumus]

   
To you it's practical and helpful as you own a Stax amp.  To Dan and to those who don't own any Stax gear, it may not be.  I for one am happy to hear that there are going to be safety improvements.  I'd expect there will be other tangible improvements as well or it would hardly seem worth the effort.  
 
Again, your perspective as a Stax owner is perfectly valid.  But your criticisms based on your perspective seem short-sighted to this non-Stax owner.

That's true, it is practical and helpful to me as a Stax owner, part of a significant portion of his potential market. However It seems that your position is far more shortsighted than mine. Interoperability with the existing standard is not just good for existing Stax owners, it's also good for future E-stat owners of all kinds because it allows the headphones and amps developed through MrSpeaker's partnerships to natively work with the infinitely larger majority of Stax and Stax compatible E-stat gear that already exists. If you buy an amp developed for the Ether E and it uses a Stax jack, then later on you could pick up any other Stax headphone and plug it right in. Or if you buy an Ether E and you want to save money on the amp you could pick up a Stax 353 or a legacy amp like an SRM-t1 or SRM-1 Mk2. All affordable and lovely amps that would be natively compatible with a Stax plug equipped headphone.
 
 Unless there is a substantial sonic or safety advantage (which seems unlikely) to the new plug there's really no justification in breaking that compatibility. 

 

[gikigill]

As an owner of two STAX headphones and having bought the very first Maddog and the later Maddog Pro, I can't support a new connector.

Nothing short sighted to support another plug when there is no need.

Existing STAX plugs seem safe and I've never been shocked or otherwise hurt in any manner. Why reinvent the wheel?

 

[gikigill]

Um, what makes you think he didn't seek advice on how to source the parts?  And how do you know 3rd party amp makers aren't complaining about the cost?  Do lots of them get on here and complain about their supply chain woes?  

Just because Dan is on here sharing some of his thoughts, doesn't mean you know the whole story.  You're making some staggering assumptions...


To you it's practical and helpful as you own a Stax amp.  To Dan and to those who don't own any Stax gear, it may not be.  I for one am happy to hear that there are going to be safety improvements.  I'd expect there will be other tangible improvements as well or it would hardly seem worth the effort.  

Again, your perspective as a Stax owner is perfectly valid.  But your criticisms based on your perspective seem short-sighted to this non-Stax owner.

Birgir makes some of the best STAX amps around, he's never complained about paying STAX a third of his costs because there are none. You can confirm with Justin and Kevin Gilmore too.

 

[Stillhart]

Stillhart, you're regurgitating whatever you've been fed, you don't even own stax gear, call stat owner "elitists", yet seem sp confident in ascerting there's a good reason for changing decades old plug standard. Seriously...

 
This is a logical fallacy called "appeal to tradition".  Just because it's always been done that way doesn't mean it's the best way to do it.
 

  That's true, it is practical and helpful to me as a Stax owner, part of a significant portion of his potential market. However It seems that your position is far more shortsighted than mine. Interoperability with the existing standard is not just good for existing Stax owners, it's also good for future E-stat owners of all kinds because it allows the headphones and amps developed through MrSpeaker's partnerships to natively work with the infinitely larger majority of Stax and Stax compatible E-stat gear that already exists. If you buy an amp developed for the Ether E and it uses a Stax jack, then later on you could pick up any other Stax headphone and plug it right in. Or if you buy an Ether E and you want to save money on the amp you could pick up a Stax 353 or a legacy amp like an SRM-t1 or SRM-1 Mk2. All affordable and lovely amps that would be natively compatible with a Stax plug equipped headphone.
 
 Unless there is a substantial sonic or safety advantage (which seems unlikely) to the new plug there's really no justification in breaking that compatibility. 

 
He isn't breaking compatibility if there's a passive adaptor that will make it work with Stax gear.  This is the part of your argument that I'm not getting.  It's not like it won't work with Stax gear, you just need an adapter.
 
Oh right "cash grab".  I'm sure he'll get filthy rich from selling $10 adapters.
 
The crux of your argument seems to be interoperability/compatibility.  As that's not actually an issue, I am still trying to figure out why you're so vehement about it.
 

Birgir makes some of the best STAX amps around, he's never complained about paying STAX a third of his costs because there are none. You can confirm with Justin and Kevin Gilmore too.

 
Sorry, I must have missed something.  Who's arguing a third of their costs going to Stax?  Regardless, I don't see amp makers in here airing their trade secrets (i.e. cost breakdown) in public.  Just because they haven't said it's an issue doesn't mean it's not an issue.  If you'd like to provide me a link to where someone specifically says that the cost and hassle of obtaining the connectors isn't material, I'll absolutely grant you the point.
 
Regardless, I'm done here.  None of your arguments seem to have any merit so continuing to discuss it is going to get us nowhere.

 

[Brooko]

[Mod Comment]
 
Gentlemen - this very short thread has already had a couple of posts flagged by members. I've looked at the posts, and apart from a couple of people quite fervently disagreeing with each other, I've seen no actual violations of ToS or posting guidelines. What I have seen is some very strong opinions with perhaps no attempt to "walk a mile in the other person's shoes".  To the protagonists (and you know who you are) - if you cannot see any merit in the other persons view, can you at least agree that you won't agree and move on?  Last thing we want to do is moderate things - when all that is needed is a little consideration from both sides. The thread is being watched - lets keep it civil.

 

[Arthrumus]

  He isn't breaking compatibility if there's a passive adaptor that will make it work with Stax gear.  This is the part of your argument that I'm not getting.  It's not like it won't work with Stax gear, you just need an adapter.
 
Oh right "cash grab".  I'm sure he'll get filthy rich from selling $10 adapters.
 
The crux of your argument seems to be interoperability/compatibility.  As that's not actually an issue, I am still trying to figure out why you're so vehement about it.

Because it is utterly pointless to design and manufacture a new proprietary plug for no reason other than to be different. If the issue is that there is no source for the existing standard plug design then the obvious solution is to create a source for it, not to make a completely new standard that requires adapters to work with the huge pool of existing and otherwise compatible products. It's a waste of time and energy that can only serve to inconvenience it's users. No offence to MrSpeakers but there is no chance in hell that they will become the dominant E-stat manufacturer. That ship sailed over 50 years ago. They might carve out a nice healthy spot in the market, but their designs will never become standard given the overwhelming amount of legacy that the Stax designs have. 
 
Also I absolutely refute the notion that any adapter would sell for $10. Based on the cost of replacement headphone cables from MrSpeakers I expect a Stax adapter to cost between $75 and $150
 

  [Mod Comment]
 
Gentlemen - this very short thread has already had a couple of posts flagged by members. I've looked at the posts, and apart from a couple of people quite fervently disagreeing with each other, I've seen no actual violations of ToS or posting guidelines. What I have seen is some very strong opinions with perhaps no attempt to "walk a mile in the other person's shoes".  To the protagonists (and you know who you are) - if you cannot see any merit in the other persons view, can you at least agree that you won't agree and move on?  Last thing we want to do is moderate things - when all that is needed is a little consideration from both sides. The thread is being watched - lets keep it civil.
 

Just wanted to add, because I know part of this is directed at me, I'm not posting here just to stir up trouble, although I could see how you might take it that way from my first couple of comments. The reality is that I am genuinely interested in this product given my fascination with all things electrostatic. As a potential customer I feel that my thoughts on an issue like this should be heard by the manufacturer, especially if he's willing to listen. I may come off sounding like a jerk sometimes, and that certainly doesn't help my argument, but that just my keyboard getting ahead of my brain. 

 

[mrspeakers]

Well, it's a pity people are taking this personally, it's really a technology and business decision.
 
So first: if we make a new connector there will be two-way interoperability with all existing headphones and amps via a simple adaptor.  
 
Second, it seems people are making some big and wholly erroneous, assumptions about WHY we are doing this. I'll address the "sacred cow" question first; just because something has been in use for decades does not mean it is ideal.
 

1. Stax has made 'stats in volume and presumably their plugs work for them and are reliable so they have no motivation to change.  "Unchanged" and "reliable" is not the same as "ideal." 
2. There is no supplier of quality, volume parts we can find (This is an engineering project, not a religion!  We're human, maybe we missed a great resource for affordable quality parts, if so help us out here!)
3. The plug has a large diameter, bigger than an XLR.  We believe more electrostatic headphones will create demand for portable gear and a lower profile connector will be needed at some point anyhow. 
4. The current Stax plugs expose live voltage when inserted or removed from an amp that is on.  Obviously turn off the amp for safety, but that is not foolproof (I've zapped myself, so maybe I'm a klutz)
5. The current plug assumes the modern Stax voltage, 580V. It is conceivable other voltage standards may arise if more vendors join the market.  If everyone agrees to stay at 580 this is a non-issue, but it does limit options and imposes design constraints.  

 
So what we are trying to do:

1. Lower profile to enable slimmer portable amps while provide robust build quality for desktop amps
2. Additional "free" pins for future bias voltage standards 
3. Easier insertion and removal 
4. Hopefully a locking design
5. Available in volume to anyone from neutral parties who make the parts (we'd not be getting royalties nor would we be in the supply chain so as to ensure a level and fair playing field, we do not believe anything about this should be proprietary or bias towards one vendor)

 
That's really all there is to this, it's just a plug people.  
 
We have awesome gear with today's connectors ourselves, a Blue Hawaii and Liquid Lightning 2 for development.  We understand and appreciate people have big investments and we are NOT trying to obsolete or reduce the value of these in any way.  
 
We see room for improvement in the part, and to reduce costs, and to perhaps encourage more vendors to build electrostatic products.  But like I said, this isn't ideology, and our core goal is to make a great headphone, so if there's a great off the shelf part we've missed we're more than happy to revisit the discussion.  
 
Cheers...

 

[Arthrumus]

  Well, it's a pity people are taking this personally, it's really a technology and business decision.
 
So first: if we make a new connector there will be two-way interoperability with all existing headphones and amps via a simple adaptor.  
 
Second, it seems people are making some big and wholly erroneous, assumptions about WHY we are doing this. I'll address the "sacred cow" question first; just because something has been in use for decades does not mean it is ideal.
 

1. Stax has made 'stats in volume and presumably their plugs work for them and are reliable so they have no motivation to change.  "Unchanged" and "reliable" is not the same as "ideal." 
2. There is no supplier of quality, volume parts we can find (This is an engineering project, not a religion!  We're human, maybe we missed a great resource for affordable quality parts, if so help us out here!)
3. The plug has a large diameter, bigger than an XLR.  We believe more electrostatic headphones will create demand for portable gear and a lower profile connector will be needed at some point anyhow. 
4. The current Stax plugs expose live voltage when inserted or removed from an amp that is on.  Obviously turn off the amp for safety, but that is not foolproof (I've zapped myself, so maybe I'm a klutz)
5. The current plug assumes the modern Stax voltage, 580V. It is conceivable other voltage standards may arise if more vendors join the market.  If everyone agrees to stay at 580 this is a non-issue, but it does limit options and imposes design constraints.  

I don't think we are taking it personally, and of course it's your product and you can do whatever you want. But to be fair the only reason you gave until now was to make a connector that is "more modern, stylish, and obtainable" because making Stax connectors is "silly, time consuming and expensive." None of which really implies that there would be any technical advantages to such a connector. I think our criticisms were fair given the information we had to work with. That being said, now that you have elaborated on your reasons I can understand where you are coming from.
 
I still don't agree that a new connector is necessary, and I still think that you would do a lot more to help the E-stat community and amp builders by ramping up production of a high quality and affordable Stax compatible plug and socket for both your headphones and any other vendor or individual who was interested.
 
If you or anyone else intend to sell adapters then the issue of obtaining Stax plugs and jacks is still present no? How will you make adapters if there is still no source for Stax plugs and sockets? These are serious questions that I think deserve some thought.

 
So what we are trying to do:

1. Lower profile to enable slimmer portable amps while provide robust build quality for desktop amps
2. Additional "free" pins for future bias voltage standards 
3. Easier insertion and removal 
4. Hopefully a locking design
5. Available in volume to anyone from neutral parties who make the parts (we'd not be getting royalties nor would we be in the supply chain so as to ensure a level and fair playing field, we do not believe anything about this should be proprietary or bias towards one vendor)

This could be a good thing, but it also concerns me to a certain degree. If this new socket is to become the standard for a new generation of electrostatic headphones, who will determine which pins are used for which bias voltage. Will there be a governing body who makes these decisions? Will future headphone and amp makers decide this on an individual basis? How will it be ensured that every amp that has this socket will have all of the potential bias voltages wired to the same pinout for this new wave of electrostatic headphones?
 
For differing bias voltages I'm actually more in favor of incompatible sockets, because that at least ensures that you cant plug your headphones directly into something that could fry them. 
 
As for the last bullet point, I think that's wonderful, and I commend you for wanting to stay out of the supply chain to avoid conflicts of interest. However I can't help but wonder, If there are neutral parties who see a viable market for something as niche as a connector for electrostatic headphones, wouldn't it be lower risk and more profitable for them to produce connectors that interface with an existing standard that has near ubiquity in that market? 
 
I mean no offense, this is just one electrostatic headphone enthusiast and potential future customer's opinion.  
 
P.S. I actually don't consider a proprietary connector to be a deal breaker. I happily owned a pair of Koss ESP-950s for over a year and used an adapter to listen to them on my SRM-1 MK2. I just don't prefer adapters when they are unnecessary because I find them inelegant.

 

[Greggo]

Thanks for the post Dan!
 
One way or another some of my dollars are going to find their way to your company. Really appreciate what you and your team have done thus far and how you conduct yourself. Hopefully we have exhausted the connector discussion and can move up the cable to the headphones! Tell us more about the design when you can. I am curious as to what parts and/or dimensions, pads, etc... are common or different between the various Ethers... Open, C, and E. I am also looking forward to hearing about your approach to the design of the driver and if there is anything new there that you feel provides any interesting points of distinction or innovation.

 

[conquerator2]

I demand the new plug be pink, heart-shaped and be called The Pinkie plug.
Make it happen!

 

[gikigill]

   
  Regardless, I'm done here.  None of your arguments seem to have any merit so continuing to discuss it is going to get us nowhere.

 
 
You,ve never owned an estat, dont know anything about Pro/Normal bias, dont know anything at all about amp costs (freely published by Spritzer/KG and others) and yet you come here to tell us that our arguments are wrong.
 
Changing an estats plug isnt as simple as bolting a TRS front end to a XLR termination a la my HE-6.

 

[TraneTime]

Ok folks.  Here is what my little brain is telling me about all this.  Dan, do whatever it is you need to do to make your headphone.  For the rest of us, if there is something you don't like about the headphone, don't buy it.  I'll listen to the final product.  If I don't like it I won't buy it.  If I like it and I can afford it, I'll buy it.  And since I have a Stax amp I will also buy (shudder) THE ADAPTOR!  

 

[paradoxper]

   
 
You,ve never owned an estat, dont know anything about Pro/Normal bias, dont know anything at all about amp costs (freely published by Spritzer/KG and others) and yet you come here to tell us that our arguments are wrong.
 
Changing an estats plug isnt as simple as bolting a TRS front end to a XLR termination a la my HE-6.

That's Head-Fi for you.
 
I don't understand the decision for a new plug (especially providing an adapter and those costs,) but I respect Dan's business decision. I think he will aid in creating a boom for
electrostatics. At least as an entry. Not that Stax doesn't already provide stellar options there either. 

 
I would question the thought process in regards to portables as it seems the Ether E is rather inefficient. However, yes, I suppose it's still in development.

 

[gikigill]

Portable estats are always a compromise. STAX and Shure have tried but they just can't match up to a proper estat setup. I say this as owner of the SR001 and SR002.

What folks don't realise is that estats are a big investment compared to Dynamic and Planars. I switch about my amps for my cans but can't do the same with my STAX. They are more specialised.