[Fish Tank X]

Anyways, I believe TMC's argument makes some sense.

I have a ton of Mp3's that I listen to on my comptuer because importing is impractical (imagine trying to make sense of Amazon Japan's web page. *sigh* I'm gonna have to get my friend to snag me a few CD's from Japan. Even then it might still be tough) but I have the majority of my CD's as Mp3's on my computer because of the fact that i'm at my computer 4 or 5 hours a day, and I find 256K/s CBR Lame to be very convenient and it doesn't eat your computer alive (120MB an album * 20 album is only about 2.5GBs, out of my 40GB harddrive). As for sound quality, my audigy pumps out plenty of music.

On the go, there are many times in which I could have a flash Mp3 player. My current 'NetMD' implementation is Mp3->CD'r->Playstation2->MZ-R900 and *that* is a pain in the ass. The strange thing though, is that I find myself listening to foreign music on the road and the majority of that I get from Kazaa. While I dont' have the albums to these discs, and have to settle with 128K/s Mp3 (I swear, i'll buy up all the albums once my friend goes to Japan this summer) going from mp3 to burner to playstation 2 to MZ-R900 is *such* a pain in the ass. It'd be so much easier with a PC link but I can't find them in China and I dont' have the money to go NetMD at the moment....

I'd say the major advantage of MD is decent quality (sure beats the living daylights out of the cassette tape) sound for walking around the city, or a bus, or in the car, (I can't tell the difference between 256K/s MP3 and SP on my 838 earphones, I swear. Even in my house. Outside, i'd bet I couldn't tell the difference between LP2 and 128K/s MP3..) in combination to the vast stores of music shared on the music sharing networks, or your already huge collection on your computer.

I don't know about you guys, but I love music on my computer. *That* is the reason I ripped my CD's. Surfing around the net with no music is so.. bland.. Plus I use my computer atleast 4 to 5 hours a day. So I love to have vast stores of music avaliable 24/7 in near CD quality format. (256K/s LAME aint that bad.)

And with my soon to arrive Grado SR-80s and my audigy, i'm sure it'll sound fine.

But portable MP3 players are about accessing those huge stores of music, and taking them with you on the go. The portability of flash based Mp3 players compliments the choice you have from having all of your CD's on your computer.

If I had a flash based Mp3 player, I would just clear out the RAM every once in a while and make a new mix. I don't want portable MP3 for massive storage. I want to be able to take my favorite songs (at the time, they change alot) from my huge vault of music with me on a short trip to the mall, or something. And I want to do it without alot of hassle. And with a 256MB Mp3 player, 2 hours of near SP quality music (indistinguishable when on the move) with my 838s would be a dream come true.

Without OpenMG or sonic stage or any of that conversion crap. Period.

iRiver, here I come!

Flash MP3 player= Fredom to choose what you want to listen to when you want to listen to it, with enough capacity to satisfy you till you get back to your computer. A small cache of music copied from your vast store of Mp3s on your computer (I have a playlist with 100s of songs on my computer at home) to take with you outside. What's the big deal, people? You're telling me you can discern between 256K/s Mp3 and SP while running around town? With the exception of Etymotics users, I find that highly unlikely.

When it comes down to it, it depends on where you have your time and format invested.

When it comes down to it..

Nothing beats the $/MB rate of a harddrive (currently 6X lower than MD at this point. ) and alot of people transfered their CD collection to LAME 256K/s Mp3 because they saw it as a good archive format for their music on their computer while they gamed, surfed, etc.. whatever.. so they want to tap that resource with a small pool of memory to take outside with them. Make a mix and go and be content for a day. They chose Flash based Mp3. It works for them, and allows them to tap their resivour of music. Makes them happy. They're best off with flash.

(To all of those annoying enough to keep pointing out the cost of flash, the point is that the flash is only a *cache*. You're not *suposed* to store all of your music on flash. Just enough to keep you content for however long it is your flash based Mp3 player is gonna be away from your computer, for. Please, drop that point. It isn't the way MP3 players use MP3.)

Some people started out on MD and have all of their CD collections on MD. They have cherished mixed discs and know what they like and have their music on MD. For them, MD is the ideal sollution.

In the end, both are inherently 'Right'.

(An MD user who saw the light of Mp3 and now cherishes both formats)

 

[bangraman]

Throwing my two tents in, I have both MD (E10) and MP3 player (IMP-400). I love the immediacy of the Iriver, but I really hate it's sound quality when I want to listen to something good. Although I find the E10 is not as good as some MD recorders I've had for playback, it's still superior to the IMP-400 for general quality (even if the motor spin up/down noise and miscellaneous other digital stuff does get in the way sometimes).
So really, there doesn't seem to be a clear winner. MP3 is more or less immediate. I take my CD-RW out, stick it inmy PC and drag some files across... It's as simple as that. For MD, I have a high speed dubbing facility but even then I've got to sit there for half an hour until a CD's been copied to MD. I found Net MD very non-immediate too. Quality or convenience, it seems to be...

 

[Fish Tank X]

Quote:

Originally posted by bangraman Throwing my two tents in, I have both MD (E10) and MP3 player (IMP-400). I love the immediacy of the Iriver, but I really hate it's sound quality when I want to listen to something good. Although I find the E10 is not as good as some MD recorders I've had for playback, it's still superior to the IMP-400 for general quality (even if the motor spin up/down noise and miscellaneous other digital stuff does get in the way sometimes). So really, there doesn't seem to be a clear winner. MP3 is more or less immediate. I take my CD-RW out, stick it inmy PC and drag some files across... It's as simple as that. For MD, I have a high speed dubbing facility but even then I've got to sit there for half an hour until a CD's been copied to MD. I found Net MD very non-immediate too. Quality or convenience, it seems to be...

Yeah, but quality is only as important as the quietness of your surroundings. I've found it impossible to hear bass distortion on a bus, for example.

 

[mmortal03]

lol, you guys sound like it is a pain to use a computer! How about this, start encoding at low priority, and then go do your daily internet surfing. Or, start the encoding, and then go somewhere else, go watch TV, go eat. I have never avoided using my computer, and I definately don't see that as an argument.

As for some good links to discussion on this topic, comparing MD to MP3 and other lossy formats, here are some:



http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/index.p...2099&hl=atrac&

http://www.audio-illumination.org/fo...hl=atrac&st=25

and this one even links back to another thread at this site to make a good point.


http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/index.p...1722&hl=atrac&

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/index.p...7192&hl=atrac&

For the price, MD is a good portable player, but buying it for quality listening is NOT the purpose of the format at all. Self encoded mp3s at say, --alt-preset standard exceed any MD ATRAC format in quality, hands down. Plus, you have to transcode any downloaded format into ATRAC to use a MD player which introduces very bad sound quality inherent to transcoding lossy formats. I see it as a waste of money to spend over 100 dollars on an MD player, because it defeats the purpose.
Also, buying a player that doesn't (or can't eventually) support other formats is ridiculous.

 

[Eagle_Driver]

On the other hand, I see it as a waste to spend more than $80 on any MP3 player. You see, even a $500 MP3 player can still use very crappy outputs that are about as horrible as those from a $60 player. (I'm not talking about the iPod in particular; I'm only talking about typical practices from portable audio manufacturers.) And the overwhelming majority of MP3 ripping and encoding software that's available is downright HORRID.

Granted, I'm no big fan of MD or ATRAC, either. In fact, I'd rather carry Redbook audio CDs - in particular, store-bought originals - than MDs or MP3s, even portably.

 

[Achilles]

I bought a MD player several years ago. Never really used it. MP3 players, on the other hand, have been a blessing; I can't say I have ever had reason to regret using them. And ever since jukebox3, with its firewire, dual battery pack, 20 gigs, and line out, I have not thought of about another portable player.

CD at home, MP3 on the go, and MD in a box buried in the basement.

 

[Eagle_Driver]

Different strokes for different folks...

Even if I buy a HD-based MP3 jukebox, I will never use it while walking - only when it's sitting still on a sturdy table. That's based on my bad experiences with a few borrowed units. Very high RPMs (greater than 3000RPM) plus any lateral motion whatsoever is bad for the units. And if that HD-based player gets screwed over during slightly active use, consider yourself to no longer have any warranty at all whatsoever for that unit, even if the trouble started on the date of purchase. All other types of music players are far more robust than HD-based players - as far as shock-resistance is concerned.

 

[fappar]

dammit, i hate you guys

now the money i have (NONE) must go to buy both a $300 md recorder (the n910) and a hdd based mp3 player! (the upcoming archos thing...)

i was saving for a new car...

 

[TMC]

Quote:

Originally posted by Eagle_Driver And the overwhelming majority of MP3 ripping and encoding software that's available is downright HORRID.

Well use some good software and stay away from the horrid ones, problem solved.

 

[Tim D]

The best *free* ripping and encoding software for the PC will absolutely ream and destroy whatever Sony has coded up.

 

[mmortal03]

I hear mini-cd/mp3 players are pretty cool for this type of thing these days.

Check out these:

http://www.reviewboard.com/Section/Hardware/cdmp3teac

http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/s....html?FRE-BMAN

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...onics&n=516876

http://www.mp3newswire.net/stories/2001/ripgo.html

http://www.digimania.be/en/prod_det.asp?ProductID=305

http://www.dansdata.com/cursor.htm

http://www.edgereview.com/ataglance....y=audio&ID=318


You could also go for a flash player that is also expandable by way of external memory cards and is an option I am currently considering. This way, you would have the expandability, and by removing any moving-parts cards, you would also have the flash excersizeability. I may wait until MPEG-4 AAC SBR or Ogg Vorbis is supported on a flash player though, because low bitrate stuff is what these formats really shine at producing.

http://www.mydivaplayer.com/html/diva.html

 

[bangraman]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim D The best *free* ripping and encoding software for the PC will absolutely ream and destroy whatever Sony has coded up.

A lot of it depends on the ripping and playback environment. I can tell you that having compared a JE770/MT888 combination on the MD side and a LAME / IMP-400 / IFP-195T combination for MP3, MD walks all over the MP3 for sound quality.


Just as MP3 players can't function effectively on their own, MD players ideally need a deck to work really well.


Because this is Head-Fi, with the emphasis on Fi, and it's something I care about, that's the reason I still stick with MD. For portable use I now have an E10 which is actually a retrograde step in terms of quality, with odd whistling noises from the motor and other curiousities included in the sound but the general rendition is still superior to my iRiver. And I'm willing to make the sacrifice over better MD players purely for the reason that the E10 is about the size of a Minidisc case, and features a full-control backlit remote.


I've heard two Archos units now and they aren't that hot sound-wise. The iPod (short experience it has to be admitted) is very good but still doesn't approach a good deck+portable combo and my iRiver is distinctly second-rate. They are all much more convenient however than MD for getting downloaded material over to a portable format. And that's why I use them. When I have time, I continue building up my MD library. When I don't, I grab my MP3 player.

 

[fappar]

as for ripping software, CDex is wonderful

 

[SpoonMan]

Well I just spent the last 20 mins or so reading through this thread, so I figure I'll post my 2cents about the issue. I'm no expert on MD, I moved away from CD players because I didn't want to have to lug any removable media around with me, and so I've never owned an MD player, for the same reason. I used to own an archos recorder 20, and now own a Creative Nomad Zen.

I'd like to first address the issue of hard disk players being overly fragile, when I used to use my archos I'd take it mountain biking with me on pretty much a daily basis, on one occasion, I flew over my handlebars landing square on my arse, the archos flew another 10ft or so and landed pretty hard as well (it was in it's case of course), I went over to it figuring it would be dead, but it was sitting there still playing the song, with no visual damage. Of course after this incident I secured the archos better so when I go flying it does not. I might add that my archos still works perfectly. I can't say the same for the Zen yet in regards to mountain biking, as it's not yet mountain biking season, but I don't doubt I'll get the same results, as build quality on this unit is top quality as well. Laptop hd's are getting better at shock absorption, they are not nearly as fragile as they once were, my archos only ever skipped a handful of times for the year I owned it, and my Zen has never skiped (archos recorder 20's only have 2megs of onboard ram, the Zen has 16)

I saw the issue of MD's being easier to make mixes on then mp3 players, it wasn't specified which type of players people were referring to, but creating a playlist or "mix" on my Zen is very easy. The zen even allows you to combine various playlists, add songs, or add entire genre's / albums / artists to the "now playing" list, and from there you can save that list as a playlist if you want.

From a sound quality standpoint I don't know which is better, I know the sound quality of my Zen is more then enough for my uses, and it sounds great coming out of my Sony V6's, Shure e1c's and my Klipsch pm5.1's.

From a portability aspect, it all depends on your uses, if you are ok with taking a disc or 2 with you and leaving the house for the day, then I dare say a HD-mp3 player would be a waste of money for you. However, the main draw of these players is being able to take your entire music collection with you. How many md's would it take to have the equivalent of 10+ gigs of mp3's? I love being able to slip 20+ gigs of music in my pocket and listen to any of it whenver I want, or if I don't really know exactly what I want to hear, I can shuffle my whole collection and hear any of my tracks randomly.

As was pointed out earlier in this thread, there's a larger argument for ease of use and convience. My listening habits are pretty spontanoues, it's got nothing to do with planning, or anything of the sort, I simply don't know what I'm going to feel like listening to an hour or 2 from now. If you're sitting on the bus with a rap or rock mix and suddenly feel like listening to some coldplay, or anything else that's not on your disc (or couple discs u have with you), you're out of luck...with my zen it's just a few clicks away. If you want to listen to something on MD that's not on your current disc, you have to switch to that disc, then 45 mins later if you should feel like listening to something on your first disc, you have to switch again. With the Zen, adding, removing or combining mixes only takes a few seconds. Just bought a new cd and want to add it to your mp3 collection? depending on the speed of your computer and burner the entire process can be done in less then 10 minutes, both usb, usb2 and firewire can transfer a full album to a player in less then a minute.

MD may indeed sound a bit better then mp3's, I've A/B'd a Zen and an iPod and the sound quality of the Zen was clearly superior to the iPod (the only reason I'm saying this is I've seen people say the iPod may sound almost as good as MD). But for portability and ease of use day in and day out, I don't think MD comes close to HD-mp3 players.

 

[fappar]

Quote:

Originally posted by SpoonMan snip

does the archos support 320kbps mp3s?


i just wish it supported ogg vorbis.....