[sohels]

What about adding a note right under the MOT's name, in exceptionally bad cases? Users can know at a glance that they must exercise greater caution and further investigate the MOT's history.

 

[manaox2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sohels /img/forum/go_quote.gif What about adding a note right under the MOT's name, in exceptionally bad cases? Users can know at a glance that they must exercise greater caution and further investigate the MOT's history.

How about they are shunned publicly (within reason) and in exceptionally bad cases they are permabanned?

 

[pdupiano]

Umm I really don't think the government or any regulating body would actually ever say "You regulate yourself" And if you carefully read what I wrote up, you'll quickly realize that the regulation comes from the head-fi members, not head-fi itself.

I'll take criticism where its due, but I refuse to be the straw man you love to burn and pick at with your pitchforks and torches.

And Uncle Eric plain and simply put, none of those items were "Designed or Built for Death" (well an argument could be made for guns). As far as I'm concerned, no one designs alcohol to kill you. But someone can built an amp bypassing all safety features and allowing pins to get shorted to shock/damage your equipment, and in one of the cases mentioned -this ocured.

Regulations by a governing body don't work because of what you're saying. Regulations by the people are different. Think of a small town where everyone cared about say the environment, and if you threw out trash on the side of the road you got beaten up by everyone in town rather than having a police officer write you a ticket. See here's the catch. When one or a small group of the community does the patrolling its called vigilantism, when EVERYONE in the community (or most of it) does it, its neither bureaucracy or vigilantism.

 

[manaox2]

For a second, lets take my Ford vehicle for example. I have gotten over a dozen notices to get it taken to the shop to have parts replaced or removed due to dangers. If these dangers are enough to allow it to be fixed by the factory, it means they are serious and/or fatal. Its not unheard of that vehicle manufacturers use mathematical formulas to estimate cost of lawsuits due to injury or death and compare it to the cost of labor and parts to fix it. If its cheaper to fix they do, otherwise they don't. This is true of almost anything you buy, you have no idea I bet whats inside of your everyday electronics and what their dangers are, anything you buy has the possibility to harm you. I was once on a date in high school when I went to the drink machine outside the store; I was wet from the rain and when I pushed the button to choose my drink, I was shocked so badly my arm went numb up to my elbow. I trusted it enough to touch the machine without worry, it was manufactured by the Coca Cola Co.

You are right that it is up to the members of the head-fi community who they choose to purchase and what, but it isn't my business, its between those two if I'm not involved. If you don't ask for pictures or at least basically look up MOT feedback, that is your choice. Don't buy unless you are satisfied that you trust them. What you don't know about so many things really may kill you. And how many users here know what to look for to see if an amp is safe? If people like Gilmore, Maher, and others didn't point it out, would you have known even if you have pictures and a schematic? A beautiful looking amp to you can turn into fireworks with no discernible forewarning, I really don't think pictures will help. You would want to know temperature inside the chassis, parts specs and limits, the voltage seen at every stage of the circuit, and so much more that by the time you know what you were looking for, its about time that you built it yourself. You have to learn to trust a little from reviews of the manufacturer and in their knowledge. I would never recommend buying blind, but if asking the seller questions isn't enough, you probably shouldn't be buying.

 

[pdupiano]

If the issue that you have is the idea that a person will never have complete information with regards to a purchase, then you're right, no amount of regulation or even community oriented actions could fix it (well education could fix that problem to a degree but it might be too much to ask head-fi members to write a "what to look out for" guide).

As for the "I'm not part of the transaction" argument, I think I expressed my views earlier with respect to being and acting as part of the head-fi community. I just cannot fathom someone who is truly active in the community just standing by and not caring/listening to someone getting ripped off or hurt from someone's wrongful actions. And I'm actually surprised that you would personally take such a stand, for someone who has been around for a while and particularly for someone who has the "Head-fi Beginner's Guide" in their signature. I think if you've been around here long enough, you tend to act/behave more as a member of a group rather than as an independent entity. Unfortunately this has led to mob-like acts/threats in the past, and what I would really like to do is transform that into something more positive.

 

[BIG POPPA]

If a person has questions or concerns on a purchase with a MOT, they can ask them a question or start a thread. Simple as that? If this hobby is not that simple for you, this may not be the right hobby for you. I totally agree with manaox2. OP, you are still a little new to this forum. Just relax and enjoy this forum. You seem like you are young and this at times may be a little overwhelmed with things. Go to a few mini-meets in your area, that is where a lot of fun is at. Check out some DIY gear and see if you still have the same opinion?

 

[Fitz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdupiano /img/forum/go_quote.gif If the issue that you have is the idea that a person will never have complete information with regards to a purchase, then you're right, no amount of regulation or even community oriented actions could fix it (well education could fix that problem to a degree but it might be too much to ask head-fi members to write a "what to look out for" guide). As for the "I'm not part of the transaction" argument, I think I expressed my views earlier with respect to being and acting as part of the head-fi community. I just cannot fathom someone who is truly active in the community just standing by and not caring/listening to someone getting ripped off or hurt from someone's wrongful actions. And I'm actually surprised that you would personally take such a stand, for someone who has been around for a while and particularly for someone who has the "Head-fi Beginner's Guide" in their signature. I think if you've been around here long enough, you tend to act/behave more as a member of a group rather than as an independent entity. Unfortunately this has led to mob-like acts/threats in the past, and what I would really like to do is transform that into something more positive.

It doesn't help your case at all to go around suggesting that people who aren't in favor of your plan don't care when people get ripped off and aren't supportive members of the community. It's a rather childish ploy, actually.

 

[nickosha]

Perhaps the practice of posting inside pics of amps and DAC's made by unestablished MOT's would be a good idea that could be developed, but IMO it has to be voluntary.

 

[pdupiano]

I never stated or even implied for a single moment that people who don't care for my suggestions are not supportive members of the community. -NEVER- And if its in anything I've written, please quote it, bold it, whatever you'd like to show me that I have stated "If you don't care for my plan, you don't care about this community." I have NEVER stated such a thing - EVER.

What I stated to Manaox2 and an earlier post to JPelg is that if you choose to state that "I have no part in this transaction, it does not affect me, and it does not concern me," Then you are in effect alienating yourself and separating yourself from the head-fi community. And further illustrated my point by stating that, if you take this stand, then you should never have posted in the threads regarding Germania or any of the other "I got ripped off" threads. Reason being -you cannot both be part of the community and not part of the community at the same time. For you to state that "I take no part in the transaction" means that you are not part of head-fi.

Now you'd probably ask, what's my connection to head-fi and some transaction with other people? The connection is that the transaction is done within the head-fi community, a community you are crucially part of (assuming you are an active member who has gone beyond being a long time lurker). Just look at the recent threads on the HF2s and the old ones on the HF1s and their sale prices. Those threads showed that a personal transaction between members actually affected the community and the recent sales of HF2's at 480 or so demonstrated the effect of the community on the transactions on head-fi. If in fact the transactions that take place on head-fi do not affect all its members then no one should have cared that people were selling them for profit or were selling them outside of head-fi and people would never have sold them at cost.

The point is you can choose to stay away from the situation or choose to be part of it, just understand that there are implications with each choice. And my point is that I cannot stay away from these issues because I cannot accept the implication that I am alienating myself from the head-fi community and thus no longer being part of the community. As far as I'm concerned its more childish to say "I'm in, but I don't like the consequences so I'm not gonna pay attention to it"

Big Poppa, If my age or time spent on this forum somehow colors the truth value of what I have stated, then I guess its pretty futile to post anything on this forum. I'll come back then in 5 years when I have a 6 year old account and my statements become truer. And as for your suggestion for making a "how's this MOT" thread, what's the difference between that and the feedback subforum that I've suggested If anything, what you suggested could be one of the threads that end up in the annals of Head-fi after some time rather than being a prominent part attached to an MOT's name. As for DIY gear, I actually spend a good deal of my time in head-fi in the DIY section, I also build and work on my own projects, and have bought DIY gear in the past. There are a lot of gems in those forums, quality builds that far exceed what I saw in that tape covered amplifier and builds that certainly match if not surpass "professional" quality. And yes there are gear that look shoddy and poorly put together, but they are usually ended with "This was my first attempt, the second one will be better" or "Hey here's the update I wanted to make it look nicer." So I really don't understand your point about looking in the DIY Section.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdupiano /img/forum/go_quote.gif Umm I really don't think the government or any regulating body would actually ever say "You regulate yourself" And if you carefully read what I wrote up, you'll quickly realize that the regulation comes from the head-fi members, not head-fi itself. I'll take criticism where its due, but I refuse to be the straw man you love to burn and pick at with your pitchforks and torches. And Uncle Eric plain and simply put, none of those items were "Designed or Built for Death" (well an argument could be made for guns). As far as I'm concerned, no one designs alcohol to kill you. But someone can built an amp bypassing all safety features and allowing pins to get shorted to shock/damage your equipment, and in one of the cases mentioned -this ocured. Regulations by a governing body don't work because of what you're saying. Regulations by the people are different. Think of a small town where everyone cared about say the environment, and if you threw out trash on the side of the road you got beaten up by everyone in town rather than having a police officer write you a ticket. See here's the catch. When one or a small group of the community does the patrolling its called vigilantism, when EVERYONE in the community (or most of it) does it, its neither bureaucracy or vigilantism.

I've been in and around a bit of regulation and bureaucracy. Just passed 11 years as a lawyer, spent a session as chief of staff to a state senator and am a landlord, too. Bureaucracy and regulation is not simple, efficient, inexpensive, or necessarily effective. I remember spending more than a few evenings trying to straighten out a tax repeal that actually increased taxes in two counties. The law of unintended consequences is vicious and even the best made plans implemented with the bes intentions can come back and bite you. Seemingly small loopholes can open into floodgates if there's an advantage in them.

What I'm trying to say is that regulation must be very carefully planned and considered. It will require quite a bit of time and money to do right. It will not be efficient. Further, if there is a more efficient and popular way of doing things, it has a way of sliding around the regulations and rendering them useless.

I do not agree that a small community can self-regulate efficiently. If you'd like direct evidence, go to a meeting of your town's zoning board. See how much agreement there is on that, not to mention everything else. If you want some real action, go to a meeting where new utilities (sewer, water, gas, etc.) are discussed and where assessments are planned.

The best defense against shoddy products is self-education. You have to learn what is good and what isn't. You cannot go by manufacturers' claims.

And no, I'm not beating you up. I think you are idealistic, thoughtful and sincerely trying to do the right thing. However, you have not spent enough time on the slippery slope of bureaucracy and regulation to understand just how tricky they are. There are no simple answers when it comes to these things.

 

[Fitz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdupiano /img/forum/go_quote.gif I never stated or even implied for a single moment that people who don't care for my suggestions are not supportive members of the community. -NEVER- And if its in anything I've written, please quote it, bold it, whatever you'd like to show me that I have stated "If you don't care for my plan, you don't care about this community." I have NEVER stated such a thing - EVER.

As long as we're being pedantic, I never claimed you said that either. You can be deliberately obtuse all you like, but I would like to think most of us have enough reading comprehension to not be thrown off that easily. You can't take a "you're either with me or against me" stance and not expect to be called on it. Oh, and as for what I did actually say, you gave another example just now:

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdupiano /img/forum/go_quote.gif For you to state that "I take no part in the transaction" means that you are not part of head-fi.

If one chooses not to be involved in someone's private transaction under normal circumstances, that means you're not even part of the Head-Fi community anymore? That's a pretty bold- and frankly insulting- claim you're making there. I don't want to be involved in other people's private business anymore than I want them in mine, unless the situation arose that they or I felt the need to call for support from the community and chose to make it a public matter. So does that mean I'm "not part of head-fi?"

You seem to want to feel important and have some tangible influence on the community, so right now I'm letting you be the boss and do just that in some small way, OK? As the boss, do you stand by your claim quoted above, which would declare me (and many, many others) as no longer a part of the Head-Fi community? I'm not simply trying to be melodramatic (although perhaps a little drunk); I'm truly giving you the full power to make this decision for me, because I would not want to remain part of a community that's headed in that direction. I'm happy with the result either way, since it would save me a lot of time and money not ever being tempted to do favors for people here.

 

[pdupiano]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz /img/forum/go_quote.gif If one chooses not to be involved in someone's private transaction under normal circumstances, that means you're not even part of the Head-Fi community anymore? That's a pretty bold- and frankly insulting- claim you're making there. I don't want to be involved in other people's private business anymore than I want them in mine, unless the situation arose that they or I felt the need to call for support from the community and chose to make it a public matter. So does that mean I'm "not part of head-fi?" You seem to want to feel important and have some tangible influence on the community, so right now I'm letting you be the boss and do just that in some small way, OK? As the boss, do you stand by your claim quoted above, which would declare me (and many, many others) as no longer a part of the Head-Fi community? I'm not simply trying to be melodramatic (although perhaps a little drunk); I'm truly giving you the full power to make this decision for me, because I would not want to remain part of a community that's headed in that direction. I'm happy with the result either way, since it would save me a lot of time and money not ever being tempted to do favors for people here.

Transactions dealing with the safety of the general community is a public issue.

And if I'm the boss, why am I then the low man on the totem pole. Anyway the point still stands, either your in or your out, your choice. Just understand what each choice implies. As you point out, the favors you've done for others and the info you've shared are consequences of you choosing to be part of the community. Furthermore, because you've been part of the community, certain transactions have occurred SPECIFICALLY because of you! ala "Fitz" modded amps, AKG's, etc.... And those transactions, and threads resulted in a reputation you built up in the community which ultimately affected the community itself. Your decision to be part of the head-fi community and subsequent actions from it added something to head-fi that other audio forums, perhaps something like ilounge, could not compare to. That shaped the community and whatever it takes part in -including sales and trades among members. For you to now claim that you take no part in a public issue that concerns the community is to take a step away from the community, to step out and separate yourself from head-fi.


Uncle Erik,
While I've often hoped to never see the bureaucratic process at work, my dreams haven't exactly come true. While my time spent under the rules and regulations of the government pale in comparison to yours, I think Ive had enough of a taste of bureaucracy to know that its not for me -partly the reason why I attacked anyone claiming I was setting up a bureaucratic approach. And if I am being idealistic,... nothing much I could do about that. You'd probably the millionth person that's told me that and subsequently just wrote off everything I wrote/said as "does not compute with the real world, please discard." It surprises me that I've survived more than a year in engineering where everything is practically realistic.

 

[BIG POPPA]

To me it is reckless to let someones fear dictate rules for others on the forum. It is OK to discuss what concerns you. But, to take guidance from it affecting The 100K members is nuts. How much experience do you have dealing with MOT/DIY builders? How much money do you have invested dealing with the MOT/DIY builders? Have you even listened to any DIY gear from any MOT? Do you have any bad experiences personally? Just a few questions I have for the OP.

 

[pdupiano]

Read the first post, this is meant to be a discussion. As stated the first two things were proposals and have been up for discussion.

As for my experiences with MOT/Diyer's I've seen Scootermafia's behavior on the forum (when an issue arose regarding some Jena labs cables), Stacy's response to me regarding the requirements to be an MOT, and I have bough cables from MOTs and diyers to check out their claims. I was also around when EFN disappeared for a while due to his personal issues. As far as buying amps/custom builds, I bought a custom PPA amp with a separate/dedicated PSU from another head-fier (which was VERY well built and they took a lot of safety precautions). They even put a nice wood finish on the amp as a nice touch.

Quite frankly dismissing the points based on a lack of experience or time on this forum, seems to be your approach. If you don't think that its worthwhile to read or even think about the points then Id make one more proposal, and I'm certain that this will be more popular among head-fiers than the recent ones I've made, The new proposal is to make a "post/time spent on head-fi" Filter. So basically you can go to your account page, and set which posts get filtered from your eyes. If a poster has spent less than a year or two on head-fi, then you don't see their post. Or perhaps if they have fewer than 100 posts you don't see their posts until they are above that 100.

 

[BIG POPPA]

I kinda see your point? If you were ripped off from a MOT I may see a little clearer where you are coming from? To me the MOD's do a great job dealing with this matter. I have been an Audiophile for about 30 years and have seen alot of things along the way. To consider all the circumstances in the discussion at hand I do not agree with the OP handling this matter. To me it is just extra B.S. to deal with. Never noticed that the current system of handling things was broken or needing an over haul?