MOT/ Diyer/Psuedo-pro/Pro/issues
Oct 10, 2009 at 3:40 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 48

pdupiano

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In light of recent events including some MOT's and N_Maher and Dr. Gilmore's findings with regards to some Singlepower amps as well as the massive uproar and mob-like mentality on head-fi, its becoming clear that there needs to be some form of regulation (well maybe not regulation) but something to help protect buyers and sellers in certain transactions.

Please post whatever ideas you have in the hopes that a mod will read this and that some of these ideas will be implemented. I'm only creating this thread with the purpose of separating this line of discussion from the current issues involving Germania.

To get it started I propose the following:
Each sale by an MOT (particularly with regards to custom Amps/Dacs or any other form of custom work), must be posted under their "MOT Feedback/reference thread" And should include the following:
-Pictures of the amp/dac
-Test results (RMAA or any other safety checks)
-Proof that it is working (this will protect against shipping issues)

MOT's must have their MOT feedback thread on their Signature

MOT Feedback should be more of a subforum rather than a single thread with feedback

I think a lot of MOT's already put their feedback thread on their signature, but I was hoping to revamp their feedback thread to something like a feedback forum, so that any issues with the MOT's work would get bumped and would be the first thing that a potential customer would see. Because lets face it, when we see someone with 10 pages of feedback, the first 4 being positive, we tend to skip a few pages here and there. Mind you it might be asking for trouble, but I would be very surprised if EVERY headfier read EVERY comment on a person's feedback thread especially if they are well known in the community, have tons of feedback.

Issues with proposals:
The main issues with the suggestion above would be some form of psuedo advertising from an MOT because they would be showing their work in the forums. But I think in this case, particularly with the recent issues with Singepower amps and the custom amp built by Germania for Biggie, SAFETY should be a primary concern, and it should be placed above any issues of "psuedo-advertising." Those amps were not only faulty, but down right dangerous and could have destroyed the buyer's equipment, not to mention seriously harm if not kill the unknowing buyer. That can't, for any reason keep going on.

The new subthread will certainly cost more money/upkeep on head-fi's part but it might be offset by charging a fee for being an MOT, instead of it being free.
 
Oct 10, 2009 at 4:49 AM Post #2 of 48

Samgotit

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Good lord, are you looking for a career in government.

That's too much bureaucracy. I'm sure the moderators don't want to oversee a mess like that. I like Dug's suggesting of a DIY seller title. Plain and simple. Like was mentioned in the other thread, this is not the norm. It's unfortunate, but there's no need burden sellers like that. The site does a pretty good job of policing its own, and the mods step in when that goes too far.
 
Oct 10, 2009 at 5:07 AM Post #3 of 48

BIG POPPA

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Somebody p issed off the OP?
angry_face.gif
 
Oct 10, 2009 at 5:11 AM Post #4 of 48

pdupiano

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Did you guys look at the findings with regards to singlepower amps? and the orevious issue with Germania's amp build? I'm not talking about issues of customer service, or lack of communication, stolen money, broken items.

I'm referring to issues that could have killed someone, burned down a house, stuff that was designed and built inherently UNSAFE.
 
Oct 10, 2009 at 5:17 AM Post #5 of 48

marvin

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pdupiano /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Did you guys look at the findings with regards to singlepower amps? and the orevious issue with Germania's amp build? I'm not talking about issues of customer service, or lack of communication, stolen money, broken items.

I'm referring to issues that could have killed someone, burned down a house, stuff that was designed and built inherently UNSAFE.



That's the risk you take when you buy products without the proper certifications. Anyone that buys a DIY product should understand the risks involved, know how to evaluate those risks, and know how to mitigate them if necessary.
 
Oct 10, 2009 at 5:22 AM Post #7 of 48

BIG POPPA

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Most of the people in this forum are adults. We act accordingly. I can watch my wallet as good as anybody. Thanks for caring though.
 
Oct 10, 2009 at 1:21 PM Post #8 of 48

pdupiano

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This isn't about people's wallets. You know what, fine shelf out the grand so be it. But when you spend a grand on something that can kill you, no wait let me reiterate something that is DESIGNED to fail, built to fail, built to shock or even hurt you, then there's something wrong. Screw the damage to your equipment, screw losing 1000 bucks on a a deal. I'm talking about the possibility of getting electrocuted, having a few amps running through you, or having this thing blow up in your face. Between "melting transformers" and packaging tape as the only thing preventing your power supply from shorting out all of its components, I don't think that my claims of someone getting seriously hurt are off base. In some of those builds, the BASIC safety precautions for building ANYTHING weren't even implemented.

On the flip side there are certainly issues with monitoring everything, but I don't think that there's too much more to add on the mod's plate (assuming we can get an extra one or two).
1. Setting up the subforum may be more of a server/hardware issue than needing mods for it
2. Requiring MOT's to post their builds would be more on them and their buyers rather than a MOD. Basically, don't buy unless that MOT puts the pics/info up, its just got to be something that we spread as common practice in the forums (like people changing prices to $old -Im still relatively new here but that's something that you notice immediately and pick up right away without having a MOD tell you "hey your item sold, change it to $old.")

And lastly, yes most of the individuals here are adults, this would easily separate the "adult MOT" from the child MOT. But the examples used above are clearly adults to reverted back to their childish stages and decided to disappear and not take responsibility for their actions.
 
Oct 10, 2009 at 1:58 PM Post #9 of 48
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So should Sennheiser and Ultrasone post every pair of headphones they sell too? Should Ray Samuels, Headamp and Hifiman post all their sales too? Where do you draw the line? Now you're going to say that this wouldn't apply to them, but you clearly haven't thought this through realistically. What you're asking is purely crazy and un-workable and indeed the kind of thing dreamed up by government bureaucracy.

I think if it already isn't clear, the new mods are looking very closely at what is going on with manufacturers whose wares are being sold to Head-fi'ers. So far, one useful suggestion has been made that a DIYer group be created. However, as group memberships can only be altered by an admin, a lot is being asked of them on top of what already must be a huge burden.
 
Oct 10, 2009 at 2:14 PM Post #10 of 48

Born2bwire

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I'll post this again. There is a very simple way of predicting this behavior:

Honestly, the one lesson I have seen time and time again in the 8 years I've been here is that the second that ANY retailer or MOT starts to flake out, RUN. They start missing deadlines, drop off communication, or anything of the kind STOP DOING ANY BUSINESS WITH THEM. This is the same pattern of behavior that you see with any of the burns over the years like drewd, Single Power... The worst part is that they still accept new orders when they are obviously in over their head. It doesn't matter whether it is due to incompetance or malevolence, it is not something you ever want to get involved in.

The major problem is that people ignore the warning signs and keep hoping that things work out, or even worse, they merchant will fulfill some orders and then slack off again. Then, when people start worrying the few that got their problems worked out start chiming in to hang in there and the cycle continues until it finally breaks down.
 
Oct 10, 2009 at 2:23 PM Post #11 of 48

pdupiano

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I would suggest drawing the line here:
1. Individuals/Companies that build/create custom units
-The only company that would fall in this line from the top manufacturers is Beyerdynamic under their Manufaktur Line

2. Individuals/Companies that mass produce units (eg Ray Samuels, Headamp, Hifiman) would be limited to "batch" testing (if any testing at all)
-Remember that this is for that set of individuals that aren't up to true MOT/Sponsor status like ultrasone, sennheiser, raysamuels etc... because if any of those guys ever release something dangerous, they would invariably have a lot more to lose than simply a customer or two
.
-This is for individuals that are just above the diy person or group, those individuals who aren't official head-fier sponsors, those individuals who specialize in "one of" works or builds rather than mass produced units

At this point the only confusion of the line would be someone like Mikhail and singlepower amps, but all of his units worked, at least until some time after they have been used (because of the amount of time it took for the transformers or resistors to heat up and get damaged). Because his units worked, he would certainly pass all the initial checks and wouldn't have any problems getting people to buy his items. But had there been a separate subforum for him and his work, instead of just a feedback thread, the complaints would be at the top of that forum almost like a sticky that people would have to read everytime they click on his feedback on his work. So instead of having a 100 page thread about Mikhail, you would have individual threads with specific customer complaints eg
"Hey my single power blew up"
"Mikhail took 2 years to build my amp"

Bureaucracy would be if we were to place all this burden on the moderators and admin, but a lot of this would have to be placed on the head-fi community itself. As a group we should check our members, so that we can keep things safe. As far as I'm concerned, a lot of the safety issues weren't brought up by mods or admins, but rather by members of the community, individuals who took the time and understood that something needed to be said. I'm not saying that the mods need to look at every picture or view every test result far from it, I'm just saying that they make that a rule for those diyMOTs and allow the community to check in on those individuals as they begin to build and create. Without something like this in place, you have something like:

potential buyer "Do you have any feedback of pictures of your past work?"
diymot "Shure, take a look at these"
potential buyer "They look great, ..... when can I expect the amp"
.........a few months
Buyer "Great my amp is here, let me plug it in.....
smily_headphones1.gif
smily_headphones1.gif
smily_headphones1.gif
.....zap

The last part wasn't necessary but notice that we do ask for feedback and we do ask for more info, but the diymot can pick and choose what to put out there. This way, they would have to show everything.

A lot of the work that the admins will have to do would be based on giving someone that diymot status and informing them of the rules/regulations and setting up that new subforum. As for monitoring and making sure that those individuals are actually putting up their builds, they can rest easy knowing that the community will check for them. Think of it as a bigger/more comprehensive feedback thread more so than anything else.
 
Oct 10, 2009 at 2:39 PM Post #12 of 48

krmathis

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That is asking WAY to much I think.
If a MOT should post pictures, test results, .. of every single item/unit they sell, then they may not have a time left for building future units. Let alone time for doing research and design on new models.
Especially those who sell hundreds if not thousand of units around here (HeadAmp, RSA, ...).

We are adults (most of us at least), and should be capable of making up our own mind from reading feedback threads.
 
Oct 10, 2009 at 2:48 PM Post #15 of 48

ecclesand

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Born2bwire /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I'll post this again. There is a very simple way of predicting this behavior:

Honestly, the one lesson I have seen time and time again in the 8 years I've been here is that the second that ANY retailer or MOT starts to flake out, RUN. They start missing deadlines, drop off communication, or anything of the kind STOP DOING ANY BUSINESS WITH THEM. This is the same pattern of behavior that you see with any of the burns over the years like drewd, Single Power... The worst part is that they still accept new orders when they are obviously in over their head. It doesn't matter whether it is due to incompetance or malevolence, it is not something you ever want to get involved in.

The major problem is that people ignore the warning signs and keep hoping that things work out, or even worse, they merchant will fulfill some orders and then slack off again. Then, when people start worrying the few that got their problems worked out start chiming in to hang in there and the cycle continues until it finally breaks down.



This is excellent advice and it puts the responsibility on the buyer as it should be. And this applies outside of Head-Fi. If you're not happy with a company or you don't trust them, then don't support them by buying their products.
 

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