[MikeW]

I suppose if you felt inclined, you could register for an account on their forum and clear some things up. Just reading the comments of the review there, it's clear that most don't understand how the LP works. They don't understand it's topology, or it's heritage. Some might care, if informed, most don't. It's a tough crowd. If your curious what you can expect though, read the review of the Soekris 1541, and the back and forth on the forum's between that manufacturer and the crowd there. He's been alot harder on some of your other designs then the LP.

 

[omniweltall]

Yes. But this kind of thing spreads around and becomes fixed in people's minds. I'm not happy about it.

You reputation far surpasses Amir's. Many people have heard the LP and everyone give very positive reviews. There will be more people defending it.

 

[atomicbob]

Yes. But this kind of thing spreads around and becomes fixed in people's minds. I'm not happy about it.

Alex is correct in pointing out how people not skilled in the measurement arts will latch on to data which may be selectively presented, misleading, misrepresenting or deficient, and develop incorrect conclusions because a high profile audio tester was employed for the measurements. Then this compromised understanding of information is regurgitated as fact, repeatedly. No one seems to question the skill levels or bias of people performing the measurements.

I suppose if you felt inclined, you could register for an account on their forum and clear some things up. Just reading the comments of the review there, it's clear that most don't understand how the LP works. They don't understand it's topology, or it's heritage. Some might care, if informed, most don't. It's a tough crowd. If your curious what you can expect though, read the review of the Soekris 1541, and the back and forth on the forum's between that manufacturer and the crowd there. He's been alot harder on some of your other designs then the LP.

The follower faithful would harass Alex no end. Attempts at reasoning would require considerable time, likely with no positive outcome, which could be better spent in more useful ways. Tar baby.

 

[MikeW]

Selectively Presented. I like that. Pretty much sums up the entire ASR site. Well said. Ancedotally, it should be noted my Avatar, is literally the PCB from an O2 that I built myself.. one of the first kits available. Im not deaf to measurements and what they mean.

 

[Zachik]

Yes. But this kind of thing spreads around and becomes fixed in people's minds. I'm not happy about it.

Alex - one of the things I have learned early on: in this hobby is, everything is very subjective. I have countless examples of equipment that tests great, but I do not personally like!
People that make their buying decisions based on a measurement alone, without reading more reviews (for starts) and then audition it - are not worth your time or effort.
I can understand how someone throwing mud on your creation sucks, but here is the internet for you...
(especially since in this case the "engineering theory" behind the scenes is flawed)

 

[Byronb]

Some people just want to watch the world burn. Amir brings nothing of any value to audio conversations. Sorry to be harsh, but I am really tired of him slinging mud at equipment that the vast majority of owners are more than happy with. IMHO he is nothing more than a troll with measuring equipment.

 

[jsmiller58]

Alex - one of the things I have learned early on: in this hobby is, everything is very subjective. I have countless examples of equipment that tests great, but I do not personally like!
People that make their buying decisions based on a measurement alone, without reading more reviews (for starts) and then audition it - are not worth your time or effort.
I can understand how someone throwing mud on your creation sucks, but here is the internet for you...
(especially since in this case the "engineering theory" behind the scenes is flawed)

Question... is the theory flawed, or the execution flawed.. there’s a difference... Seems to me that not measuring the LP in balanced and showing where that would rank against others is poor execution, or selective execution.

The theory that a device should measure well if it is to perform well across a wide range of possible use cases is not flawed. Hard to get right - sure. Flawed, I don’t agree.

 

[Zachik]

Question... is the theory flawed, or the execution flawed.. there’s a difference... Seems to me that not measuring the LP in balanced and showing where that would rank against others is poor execution, or selective execution.

The theory that a device should measure well if it is to perform well across a wide range of possible use cases is not flawed. Hard to get right - sure. Flawed, I don’t agree.

There is no argument here that the execution is definitely selective at best... Reminds me of high-school physics lab experiments - we'd keep massaging and "fine tuning" the experiment execution until the actual measurements were close enough to the calculated results

As for the whole science behind audio measurements - you cannot win that war, so I will not even go there
All I would say on the subject is that I belong to the camp that choose what my ears and brain prefer. Not what the oscilloscope prefer.
Often times - those 2 are NOT in agreement, and I do not care if I like the "poorly measured" equipment better

 

[jsmiller58]

There is no argument here that the execution is definitely selective at best... Reminds me of high-school physics lab experiments - we'd keep massaging and "fine tuning" the experiment execution until the actual measurements were close enough to the calculated results

As for the whole science behind audio measurements - you cannot win that war, so I will not even go there
All I would say on the subject is that I belong to the camp that choose what my ears and brain prefer. Not what the oscilloscope prefer.
Often times - those 2 are NOT in agreement, and I do not care if I like the "poorly measured" equipment better

Well a couple of responses, where I will disagree a little and agree a whole lot more.

To get it out of the way first - BUY WHAT YOU LIKE AND CAN AFFORD! There, you don’t need to read anything else I write in this response

As to measurement based analysis... I am an electrical engineer, so biased to want to see, and believe, the numbers. But, I am experienced enough to know that no numbers are ever enough to tell the full story. I am also an executive who has led massive organizations and know that any subjective report to me is incomplete. I always triangulate the numbers and the anecdotal reports. In the case of audio, an amp may sound heavenly to you... until you change your DAC, or more likely your headphones. Then the sound might change for the worse. Hence why knowing the measurements helps make an informed purchase.

I just read the full ASR thread. All in all I thought it was pretty benign, if not incomplete as Amir admits to not being able to do a good job on balanced measurements... In general I think that Amir should really avoid reviewing gear that he can’t completely measure, especially if what he can’t measure is a critical part of the value prop.

As to me, well, I am kicking myself for missing the big Monoprice sale...!

 

[atomicbob]

Let me get this straight. Someone can afford an APx555 analyzer and then doesn't take the minimal extra step of constructing a Neutrik NC4MX breakout cable for 30R and 300R loading of each channel with other side of resistor loads having cable to pair of NC3MXX to plug into the analyzer balanced inputs? To make measurements on an amplifier whose chief feature is balanced operation with unbalanced as a convenience feature? And people take this seriously because of the APx555? A complex instrument requiring depth of knowledge, experience and skill of the user to achieve reliable, high quality measurements. By the way, the same can be said for any of the analyzers, dScope, Avermetrics, Rohde & Schwarz, SRS, etc.

See setup picture here for example of how easy it is to make balanced measurements with a little effort using a soldering iron and readily available parts:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/monoprice-cavalli-liquid-platinum-technical-measurements.894843/
That setup picture is a visual how-to for balanced measurements.

 

[jsmiller58]

Let me get this straight. Someone can afford an APx555 analyzer and then doesn't take the minimal extra step of constructing a Neutrik NC4MX breakout cable for 30R and 300R loading of each channel with other side of resistor loads having cable to pair of NC3MXX to plug into the analyzer balanced inputs? To make measurements on an amplifier whose chief feature is balanced operation with unbalanced as a convenience feature? And people take this seriously because of the APx555? A complex instrument requiring depth of knowledge, experience and skill of the user to achieve reliable, high quality measurements. By the way, the same can be said for any of the analyzers, dScope, Avermetrics, Rohde & Schwarz, SRS, etc.

See setup picture here for example of how easy it is to make balanced measurements with a little effort using a soldering iron and readily available parts:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/monoprice-cavalli-liquid-platinum-technical-measurements.894843/
That setup picture is a visual how-to for balanced measurements.

In my opinion, but I am willing to strongly defend that opinion, this is the wrong place to post this feedback/idea, as this site is neither ASR, nor is this a thread to either defend or attack Amir or his work.

Post it on ASR where it can (a) be appreciated, (b) debated, and (c) used if desired by the principals involved.

 

[Rattle]

In my opinion, but I am willing to strongly defend that opinion, this is the wrong place to post this feedback/idea, as this site is neither ASR, nor is this a thread to either defend or attack Amir or his work.

Post it on ASR where it can (a) be appreciated, (b) debated, and (c) used if desired by the principals involved.

How is this the wrong place ? There's tons of people that should know who doesn't know their ass from their elbow and who does...

 

[jsmiller58]

How is this the wrong place ? There's tons of people that should know who doesn't know their ass from their elbow and who does...

Wrong place because posting here does no one a lick of good. @atomicbob and Amir have a long and colorful history of mutual dislike and disagreements. Everyone, even the inhabitants on a planet around Alpha Centauri know this. But if someone wants to point out an individual’s flawed approach, have the decency, courtesy, and courage to go to their site and do so. Otherwise it is just talking behind someone’s back.

And, no, I am not defending Amir. Notice I said he shouldn’t review stuff that he can’t adequately measure, especially if that feature is critical to the value prop.

I just wish everyone would behave like grownups.

 

[Odin412]

All I would say on the subject is that I belong to the camp that choose what my ears and brain prefer. Not what the oscilloscope prefer.
Often times - those 2 are NOT in agreement, and I do not care if I like the "poorly measured" equipment better

I'm in the same camp - plus, I find it hard to believe that something as complex as how the human brain perceives sound can be quantified by a few measurements.

 

[runeight]

Ah, ducking back in here for a bit. As you know gents, I don't post much to the forums.

Several things..............

It seems quite reasonable to me for people on a forum dedicated to a particular product to have a discussion about measurements of that product that appeared on another website. If it were not proper to do this then I think most of the Web might have to shutdown.

However, there are a few constraints that most people abide by:

1. To not let any particular discussion that may outside of the direct intention of the thread to consume the conversation and divert it. I don't think this was happening here and, probably, this part of the conversation would have wound down fairly soon as other topics were introduced and all that wanted to be said was said.

2. The conversation does not include personal attacks. I haven't seen this here (though I could have missed something) although Amir has been noted and his general philosophy and methodology have been attributed to him insofar as they can be discerned from his public persona.

Providing that these constraints are met, I don't think any conversation on any forum about any other forum or website is inappropriate. Amir is free to read this forum if he wishes to and to make posts about his review and the comments here about it. Or not. As any of us would be free to go to his website and do the same if we were so inclined.

But, I know, we may disagree and yet still talk to each other.