[TK16]

I'm in the same camp - plus, I find it hard to believe that something as complex as how the human brain perceives sound can be quantified by a few measurements.

I'm in the same camp, I let my brain and ears tell me what to like, love or hate.

 

[runeight]

I'm in the same camp - plus, I find it hard to believe that something as complex as how the human brain perceives sound can be quantified by a few measurements.

Ah. This particular conversation has been a mainstay of the audio world since I first learned to walk. There have been many on either side and some on both sides.

Over the decades, IIRC, there have been some amps that measured as pure as a diamond, but they somehow didn't recreate music. There were some that didn't measure so well and they were liked by many. SET amps are among the latter. Also, it is definitely true that listening tastes can be quite different depending which part of the world you are from or in.

I think that our science and our listening experiences have not quite yet crystalized into a uniform understanding of how it all works. I suspect this is because we have not yet and probably really can't measure everything that needs to be measured for a particular individual's listening experience. OTOH, we are measuring basic things that, when done right, do give baseline information on the character and design quality of any particular amp.

It's the best we can do for now. My philosophy has been to shoot for good solid measurements while at the same time reaching for that quality of musicality that people can really hear. Sometimes it has worked.

 

[jsmiller58]

Ah, ducking back in here for a bit. As you know gents, I don't post much to the forums.

Several things..............

It seems quite reasonable to me for people on a forum dedicated to a particular product to have a discussion about measurements of that product that appeared on another website. If it were not proper to do this then I think most of the Web might have to shutdown.

However, there are a few constraints that most people abide by:

1. To not let any particular discussion that may outside of the direct intention of the thread to consume the conversation and divert it. I don't think this was happening here and, probably, this part of the conversation would have wound down fairly soon as other topics were introduced and all that wanted to be said was said.

2. The conversation does not include personal attacks. I haven't seen this here (though I could have missed something) although Amir has been noted and his general philosophy and methodology have been attributed to him insofar as they can be discerned from his public persona.

Providing that these constraints are met, I don't think any conversation on any forum about any other forum or website is inappropriate. Amir is free to read this forum if he wishes to and to make posts about his review and the comments here about it. Or not. As any of us would be free to go to his website and do the same if we were so inclined.

But, I know, we may disagree and yet still talk to each other.

Excellent points. But, I am sure you and I will disagree on one fundamental issue - if A has a problem with B they should constructively confront that problem. That is the root of training I received many years ago in a corporate culture class I took at an employer.

And we all should care that these two individuals - blessed with skills and resources virtually none of the rest of us can even dream of having - put their feud aside and collaborate. Why? Insofar as they get different answers to the same problem we, as consumers who look to them as a limited resource, are left scratching our heads as to who to believe.

Carry on.

 

[gtb75]

Notice I said he shouldn’t review stuff that he can’t adequately measure, especially if that feature is critical to the value prop.

This

I am a member over there and, while I find some of the insights his reviews provide helpful, the fact he doesn't seem to pay attention to manufacturer recommendations puzzles me. The discussion here where he is focusing on SE measurements for a balanced amp like the Liquid Platinum is a flawed approach at best. Yes the Liquid Platinum has a SE output but it, and other Cavalli designs like the Liquid Carbon, are balanced amps. I can only assume he focuses on SE because he wants a level playing field (or can't properly measure balanced), but this doesn't make sense for a balanced amp design.

I also took issue with his review of the Fiio K3, where he used the default Windows 10 driver rather than the XMOS driver mentioned in the Fiio instructions. I don't have measuring equipment, but I definitely heard a difference with the XMOS driver, and it's what the instructions recommended. Regardless, the instructions said use that driver so that's what he should have used. What is the point of going through the exercise if you don't pay attention to manufacturer recommendations for a given product?

Again I find his site and his perspective useful to a point but, like everything you read on forums, getting perspectives from multiple sources is always a good idea.

 

[kumar402]

Don’t fret guys. Finally after all those measurement in his conclusion he said he really enjoyed his 650 driven by the amp. He was not very critical and he ended up enjoying it.
Who cares about the measurement if you end up enjoying the sound coming out of it.
In his DAC measurement, SMSL SU8 performed better then chord Mojo. I own both but I always end up using Mojo as SMSL sounds thin to me compared to Mojo. Mojo has better tonality and weight in the vocals. It doesn’t matter to me if SMSL performed better then Mojo in measurement. Listening is very subjective thing and products can’t be refuted based on measurement alone unless it is horrible.

 

[jsmiller58]

This

I am a member over there and, while I find some of the insights his reviews provide helpful, the fact he doesn't seem to pay attention to manufacturer recommendations puzzles me. The discussion here where he is focusing on SE measurements for a balanced amp like the Liquid Platinum is a flawed approach at best. Yes the Liquid Platinum has a SE output but it, and other Cavalli designs like the Liquid Carbon, are balanced amps. I can only assume he focuses on SE because he wants a level playing field (or can't properly measure balanced), but this doesn't make sense for a balanced amp design.

I also took issue with his review of the Fiio K3, where he used the default Windows 10 driver rather than the XMOS driver mentioned in the Fiio instructions. I don't have measuring equipment, but I definitely heard a difference with the XMOS driver, and it's what the instructions recommended. Regardless, the instructions said use that driver so that's what he should have used. What is the point of going through the exercise if you don't pay attention to manufacturer recommendations for a given product?

Again I find his site and his perspective useful to a point but, like everything you read on forums, getting perspectives from multiple sources is always a good idea.

I agree. Getting perspectives from multiple sources is always the RIGHT idea! But I think that is even more important when the perspectives are fundamentally subjective... if they are objective, I look at these measurements in a very basic way - the same (or very similar) hardware should always arrive at the same measurement answer, barring some large product under test variance. When in my professional life I have two people give me different answers to a question that objectively should only have one answer, I tell them to go away and get their act together. Of course there is always the question about what to do with the data, but first at least have the same data when measuring the same thing with the same equipment.

 

[jsmiller58]

Don’t fret guys. Finally after all those measurement in his conclusion he said he really enjoyed his 650 driven by the amp. He was not very critical and he ended up enjoying it.
Who cares about the measurement if you end up enjoying the sound coming out of it.
In his DAC measurement, SMSL SU8 performed better then chord Mojo. I own both but I always end up using Mojo as SMSL sounds thin to me compared to Mojo. Mojo has better tonality and weight in the vocals. It doesn’t matter to me if SMSL performed better then Mojo in measurement. Listening is very subjective thing and products can’t be refuted based on measurement alone unless it is horrible.

YAY! As I said in post #1902, “BUY WHAT YOU LIKE AND CAN AFFORD”

 

[jb77]

All I would say on the subject is that I belong to the camp that choose what my ears and brain prefer. Not what the oscilloscope prefer. Often times - those 2 are NOT in agreement, and I do not care if I like the "poorly measured" equipment better

I'm in the same camp - plus, I find it hard to believe that something as complex as how the human brain perceives sound can be quantified by a few measurements.

I also go by what my ears tell me, however I do believe that measurements when done correctly do have there place in audio especially to have a baseline of information, not an “end all be all” in your decision making process!

 

[Relaxasaurus]

Does anyone stack anything on top of the LP? My DAC just fits behind the tubes but the amount of heat this amp outputs wants me to put it elsewhere. Desk space, though, is at a premium

 

[heliosphann]

Does anyone stack anything on top of the LP? My DAC just fits behind the tubes but the amount of heat this amp outputs wants me to put it elsewhere. Desk space, though, is at a premium

Yea, I don't think that's a good idea...

 

[Relaxasaurus]

Yea, I don't think that's a good idea...

Glad I asked. I just bought this from the classifieds here today and it's my first tube amp. Bummer it gets so hot.

Anyone have power consumption info on the LP? Can't seem to find it on the Monoprice site or documentation...

 

[heliosphann]

Glad I asked. I just bought this from the classifieds here today and it's my first tube amp. Bummer it gets so hot.

Anyone have power consumption info on the LP? Can't seem to find it on the Monoprice site or documentation...

I think it's posted in this thread. Do a search and you should be able to find it.

 

[jb77]

Monitor riser's on amazon are about 15 bucks... mine was 30 but it's a dually. @Zachit I'd never call Jotunheim cold and clinical, it's a pretty warm amp overall, but the treble is slightly hot, works with HD650 but could be a problem for others. I can't recommend the Jotunheim integrated dac though, I owned the Multibit Module and the Gen1 balanced, I hear the Gen2 balanced is the best, but I was never impressed with the performance of the DAC. The ADI-2 is a way better AIO, albeit at much higher cost. LP will take the best dac you can throw at it.. it's got ton's of resolution and fine details. I recently listened to it with Iphone, PC Realtek 1150, Jotunheim balanced pre-out with multibit module, and an older tda1543x8 dac I had laying around. LP really shows the source alot and I could very easily hear differences between all of the above. And i'd rank them as follows

Iphone SE
PC Realtek 1150
.
TDA1543-X8 NOS (Teradak)
.
Jotunheim Multibit Balanced Pre-Out
.
.
.
Bimby Gen5
.
.
.
ADI-2 Dac

It's a little bigger then i'd like, but it's very sturdy, and heavy, well made, affordable, black, and the vented design helps keep LP cool.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07FN556G3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I really liked this one too, honorable mention:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076GZH1R...d_r=415dc691-3bfd-11e9-8d8d-ff7b87c6b25c&th=1

It's really hard to find anything smaller. I looked. Alot

Does anyone stack anything on top of the LP? My DAC just fits behind the tubes but the amount of heat this amp outputs wants me to put it elsewhere. Desk space, though, is at a premium

Being as warm as the LP gets I would not recommend putting your SMSL SU-8 on top of it, in the above quotes I listed something that might help, you can check to see if this would work for your setup. Click to expand the first quote and it will show a picture of what other members have used for space constraints. Second quote has the links. Thanks @MikeW for the information, he helped another member in this fourm with the above.

 

[omniweltall]

Does anyone stack anything on top of the LP? My DAC just fits behind the tubes but the amount of heat this amp outputs wants me to put it elsewhere. Desk space, though, is at a premium

Why dont u attach some rubber legs on the dac? Taller ones, to be safe.

 

[VintageAudio]

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm about 50 hours into the burn in and I "think" I have notice an improvement in the sound...much of the top end glare I was experiencing and found fatiguing seems to be more under control now. I do still think the vocals are slightly recessed relative to my other headphone amp.

Overall it's sounding better, clean and crispy and starting to fill out.

Or....

could just be me playing mind games with myself.

All - just thought i'd share my findings. So after 100+ hours of burn in, the sound of the LP does improve.

My signal path is Macbook via USB to ADI-2 DAC fs via balanced to Monoprice Cavalli Liquid Platinum (balanced XLR) output to Hifiman Susvara.

The top end glare goes away after the burn-in, and the sound is pretty crispy pristine. However, after A-B against susvara to speaker taps, its seems to be missing something.

I notice the vocals are still recessed and lacks meat on the bones. I tried to tweak this with the EQ on the ADI-2, but its not easy to fix. I prefer to save my $700 USD (almost $1000 CAD), and go with 1 fewer boxes for a more fuller sound. It's not as clean from speaker taps, but just less fatiguing.

I found that through the 1/4" jack on the ADI-2, when you put it high-power mode, it can also drive the Susvaras. The separation and blackness of 1/4" output is not as good as on balanced XLR, but if you wanted an DAC/HPA combo without having extra boxes, you can get by with it.

May look at the Massdrop AAA 789 when they become more readily available.