Modify your Woo 6. . Sophia and EML 274B . Images pages 32, 33, 34 of int. and ext. and discussion of the SE . . .

[Gradofan2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamato8 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I would think that the SE will have less influence from rectifier tube than on the regular 6. There are two inductors on the SE and this will take away much of the influence because of the stiffening of the power supply and better delivery of current when needed. Inductors have a great resistance to ac, therefore they reduce ripple very well when the correct size of inductor is used. With this you have a very good supply to the tubes with less effect from what is rectifying the current. There will still be some influence but not to the degree found with the standard 6. What comes into play on the SE is the quality of the inductor and the quality of the caps.

I guess that would explain why I can't tell a big difference between rectifier tubes in my WA6 SE-Mxd.

 

[jamato8]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gradofan2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I guess that would explain why I can't tell a big difference between rectifier tubes in my WA6 SE-Mxd.

Yes but I still think you will notice a little more difference as your new amp settles in and refines.

I noticed to a great degree an amp that I modded with some nice large inductors that it really didn't matter as much was rectifiers I used. It actually took some of the fun away as I like being able to tune the amp but the supply was very solid, which is what you are after. I believe one of the inductors I used was an L193 Hammond. Well I do like inductors and they can do much more for ripple than just caps or even large caps with less sound influence that a cap can have, which is why I like to use Black Gates. Panasonic makes some excellent large voltage caps that in polar caps are as good or better than Black Gate polar caps but not as good as the nonpolar BG.


Wow, the 6 is sounding great tonight. I have the 5R4GY Tungsol in with about 50 hours on the tube now. It kind of sounded ok after sounding very good and then came back in. I also think it is the later night voltage, that gets cleaner as more appliances are turned off. The sound is excellent and the dynamics give you butterflies in your stomach.

 

[Gradofan2]

Here's some interesting info... for those of us... who are not EEs... and have no idea what a rectifier does, or what differences rolling rectifiers might have in the sound.

rectifiers

What does a rectifier (tube) do? [Archive] - SH Forums

There's more if you do a Google Search... but... this is the essence of it all.

From this information, it sounds like as you move to rectifiers with a slower rise time (response), you perceive a "softer" sound (less speed, less sharp attack, more bass bloom, etc.), and I assume the "decay" would increase (more atmosphere, reverb, etc.). Basically, a thicker, more "meaty" sound, compared to a sharper, leaner, harder sound.

Except... in the WA6 SE... the inductors do not permit as much variation in the rise time, so you get a lot less variation in the sound as the rise time slows from one type of rectifier to another.

Is that about it - or... maybe close???

Also... just curious...

What effects... if any... would the Weber Copper Caps (SS rectifiers), or Sovtek SS Rectifiers, or similar SS rectifiers have???

Would they stress the drive tubes excessively???

Would they sound too hard / harsh???

Search for a tube

Solid State Rectifier

And...

... by the way... does the Princess 274B tighten up and sound faster with burn in???

Now that I know the 274B has a slower rise time, and lower output - the new tube does sound a bit that way (perhaps only imagined / placebo effect)???

 

[Gradofan2]

Just wonderin'... how the SS rectfiers are - see below...

 

[jamato8]

Solid state rectifiers hit the tubes hard and I don't, in general, care for them. If done really right that can be ok but not just plugged in.

 

[jonoliew]

So.. just to start this debate alllllll over again.. Has anyone compared the WA6SE, WA4 and WA5LE? What's the diff? Is it worth the extra money compared to the WA6SE?

 

[Gradofan2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonoliew /img/forum/go_quote.gif So.. just to start this debate alllllll over again.. Has anyone compared the WA6SE, WA4 and WA5LE? What's the diff? Is it worth the extra money compared to the WA6SE?

Updated: 10/27/08 10:43 ET

My impressions are...

... that there are only very small incremental improvements in SQ of audio equipment, beyond a certain investment level - the "sweet spot." That is certainly consistent with most reviews of other audio components - that very modestly priced components can offer 90%+ of the SQ of the most expensive components (e.g. Monarchy M24/NM24 DAC, Marantz SA8001 CDP, etc.).

For example... as I've noted elsewhere... the WA6 SEMxd sounds great... and... it is better than my DV332 - but, it is only 5-10% better than the DV332, which is a $420 amp (shipped). Though... it is better with all types of phones, than the DV332 (an OTL amp), which was best with Senns. I really doubt anything above the SE, or SEMxd, really sound that much better. I suspect the WA6 Mxd is the "sweet spot - best SQ for the money invested.

Update: Although... it is possible that the WA6 SE (stock) rivals the WA6 Mxd - and is also in the "sweet spot" - since they both cost about the same. It uses the Rubycon Caps (which are pretty great), rather than Blackgate Caps (which are legendary) as the WA6 Mxd does. All the best tubes work in both... and likely make a much greater improvement in the sound of the WA6 Mxd, than the WA6 SE (for reasons discussed below).

Now... perhaps the WA5 LE is great, if you're after both a pre-amp and headphone amp... but... if you're after primarily a headphone amp - my guess is the WA6 Mxd (with the PDPSU) is the optimum SQ for the money invested.

Perhaps, others have compared some of these amps - and can offer experienced perspective. But, I'm skeptical that investing a lot more money in headphone amps, than the cost of the WA6 Mxd, will produce more than very small incremental improvements in SQ.

Though... I suppose you should note... I didn't take my own "sage advice." What can I say... "I'm weak, I'm weak."

 

[jonoliew]

Yea. I understand where you're coming from. Cause i was planning on getting the WE6 SE. But got kinda confused along the way. Was kind of thinking, since i was going to spend that much on an amp, why not just get the flagship model. But your answer seems like the logical way to go. Thanks for the advice! Now i just have to wait for the dumb Aussie dollar to bounce back..

 

[Orcin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gradofan2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Update: Although... it is possible that the WA6 SE (stock) rivals the WA6 Mxd - and is also in the "sweet spot" - since they both cost about the same. It uses the Rubycon Caps (which are pretty great), rather than Blackgate Caps (which are legendary) as the WA6 Mxd does. All the best tubes work in both... and likely make a much greater improvement in the sound of the WA6 Mxd, than the WA6 SE (for reasons discussed below).

I just bought the WA6SE after having listened to it vs. a lot of other amps at the Houston meet on Saturday. Those other amps included the SP Extreme and Headamp GS-1. The WA6SE sounded outstanding compared to all of them, but I do agree with you that we are splitting hairs and I could have been happy with either the GS-1 or Extreme as well.

I was determined not to go over $1500 max and I wanted more than the stock tubes. I think that the extra $450 will go farther for me if invested in tubes, including the Sophia 274B which I also bought. I haven't heard the cap upgrades so I won't know what I am missing.

The Sophia Princess is really awesome when combined with some Sylvania NOS fat bottle 6ew7's (for soundstage) or the RCA 6de7's (for punch). Either combo is just superb. I am loving this amp so much that I could not let it leave my house, so I had to send Jack money instead of returning the amp.

I still don't agree about the difference in rectifiers being small on the SE, but your mileage may vary. I have rolled in several different rectifiers, and I can hear significant changes with all of them. The difference in soundstage and bass clarity between the Sovtek 5U4G and the Sophia Princess is dramatic to me. As the Princess continues to burn-in, the difference has become more easy to detect.

 

[musicmind]

Congrats on the WA6SE Orcin, and thanks for your feedback on how the amp compared to the others at your meet.

It was great of Jack to send the amp to you so that people at the meet could get a listen of the stock WA6 and WA6SE side by side.

 

[Gradofan2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin /img/forum/go_quote.gif I just bought the WA6SE after having listened to it vs. a lot of other amps at the Houston meet on Saturday. Those other amps included the SP Extreme and Headamp GS-1. The WA6SE sounded outstanding compared to all of them, but I do agree with you that we are splitting hairs and I could have been happy with either the GS-1 or Extreme as well. I was determined not to go over $1500 max and I wanted more than the stock tubes. I think that the extra $450 will go farther for me if invested in tubes, including the Sophia 274B which I also bought. I haven't heard the cap upgrades so I won't know what I am missing. The Sophia Princess is really awesome when combined with some Sylvania NOS fat bottle 6ew7's (for soundstage) or the RCA 6de7's (for punch). Either combo is just superb. I am loving this amp so much that I could not let it leave my house, so I had to send Jack money instead of returning the amp. I still don't agree about the difference in rectifiers being small on the SE, but your mileage may vary. I have rolled in several different rectifiers, and I can hear significant changes with all of them. The difference in soundstage and bass clarity between the Sovtek 5U4G and the Sophia Princess is dramatic to me. As the Princess continues to burn-in, the difference has become more easy to detect.

Which version of the SE do you have - the stock version, without the upgraded caps, and resistors?

It may be that the upgraded caps and resistors, while "green," impart their own sound, which diminishes the differences in the sound of various rectifiers. Or, it could be that I just don't appreciate the differences. Though, from Jamato8's points, I think he means... that the design of the SE... isn't as affected by tube changes, as the WA6 is.

Of course, I do notice rather subtle changes (e.g. the Philco and Sylvania 5U4GB, when teamed with some of the 6EW7s, and selected 6DE7s, seem to have a more dynamic sound than some of the other tubes), but not dramatic changes.

Did you compare the SE to the WA6 Mxd - did you notice much difference?

I'm surprised that you thought the GS-1 comes close to the WA6 SE - I would not have thought it would. And... my experience with Extreme was different - the SE Mxd was quite a bit better - though, with the right tubes (e.g. Raytheon 6080WBs + Tung Sol 2c51, or Amperex 7062, etc.) the Extreme was closer to the SE Mxd, than with other tubes. But... the Extreme I demo'd had some "issues."

Anyway... I'm very impressed with the WA6 SE Mxd, regardless. Its just that I haven't yet experienced "great changes" in its sound, as the result of tube rolling - as I did with the Extreme.

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gradofan2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Updated: 10/27/08 10:43 ET My impressions are... ... that there are only very small incremental improvements in SQ of audio equipment, beyond a certain investment level - the "sweet spot." That is certainly consistent with most reviews of other audio components - that very modestly priced components can offer 90%+ of the SQ of the most expensive components (e.g. Monarchy M24/NM24 DAC, Marantz SA8001 CDP, etc.). For example... as I've noted elsewhere... the WA6 SEMxd sounds great... and... it is better than my DV332 - but, it is only 5-10% better than the DV332, which is a $420 amp (shipped). Though... it is better with all types of phones, than the DV332 (an OTL amp), which was best with Senns. I really doubt anything above the SE, or SEMxd, really sound that much better. I suspect the WA6 Mxd is the "sweet spot - best SQ for the money invested. Update: Although... it is possible that the WA6 SE (stock) rivals the WA6 Mxd - and is also in the "sweet spot" - since they both cost about the same. It uses the Rubycon Caps (which are pretty great), rather than Blackgate Caps (which are legendary) as the WA6 Mxd does. All the best tubes work in both... and likely make a much greater improvement in the sound of the WA6 Mxd, than the WA6 SE (for reasons discussed below). Now... perhaps the WA5 LE is great, if you're after both a pre-amp and headphone amp... but... if you're after primarily a headphone amp - my guess is the WA6 Mxd (with the PDPSU) is the optimum SQ for the money invested. Perhaps, others have compared some of these amps - and can offer experienced perspective. But, I'm skeptical that investing a lot more money in headphone amps, than the cost of the WA6 Mxd, will produce more than very small incremental improvements in SQ. Though... I suppose you should note... I didn't take my own "sage advice." What can I say... "I'm weak, I'm weak."

I agree about very small gains above a certain price point. Blutarsky and I cannot tell with our eyes closed whether we are listening to my Woo WA6 maxed with PDPSU and Sophia ($1200), his Zana Deux ($2000) or his Melos SHA Gold ($1800-2000). With the Single Power Square Wave XL discrete SS amp ($1250 2008 model with blackgates), it had to be running the HD600 balanced to achieve the same or better huge soundstage of those single ended tube amps, but everything else single ended was pretty darn close as well with it.

This was using Grado HP-1, HP-2, PS-1, RS-1 and HD600. They all sound so good that it would take days or weeks to flesh out the gains of one over the other. The only headphone with which we could hear an immediate difference with was using the stock Grado PS-1 where they had more bass with the WA6 (but maybe too much). With a modified PS-1 in an HF-1 housing and with 325i metal cups and silver dragon cable, they sounded the same again (that was also the best sounding dynamic headphone on hand).

 

[Orcin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gradofan2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Which version of the SE do you have - the stock version, without the upgraded caps, and resistors?

stock


Quote:

Originally Posted by Gradofan2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Did you compare the SE to the WA6 Mxd

no


Quote:

Originally Posted by Gradofan2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm surprised that you thought the GS-1 comes close to the WA6 SE - I would not have thought it would.

Keep in mind that this was at a meet. The source was the same DAC model, but not the same DAC unit. So it could have been different in a quiet setting with controlled volumes and the same source. I just meant that they were both very good, and you could be happy with either one. They are probably within 10% of each other IMO.

Of course, one is ss and one is tube, so if you have a bias either way it could be a much different evaluation. In the end, I liked the WA6SE better because it was tube and offered the sound signature that I was looking for along with the flexibility of tube rolling. But I respected the sound quality of the GS-1, and if I were to buy a ss s/e amp under $1000 it would be the one.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Gradofan2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif And... my experience with Extreme was different - the SE Mxd was quite a bit better - though, with the right tubes (e.g. Raytheon 6080WBs + Tung Sol 2c51, or Amperex 7062, etc.) the Extreme was closer to the SE Mxd, than with other tubes. But... the Extreme I demo'd had some "issues."

See above. I heard a very good Extreme with a very good source (Stello DA100), so I came away more impressed with it than I might have otherwise.

 

[Gradofan2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin /img/forum/go_quote.gif stock no Keep in mind that this was at a meet. The source was the same DAC model, but not the same DAC unit. So it could have been different in a quiet setting with controlled volumes and the same source. I just meant that they were both very good, and you could be happy with either one. They are probably within 10% of each other IMO. Of course, one is ss and one is tube, so if you have a bias either way it could be a much different evaluation. In the end, I liked the WA6SE better because it was tube and offered the sound signature that I was looking for along with the flexibility of tube rolling. But I respected the sound quality of the GS-1, and if I were to buy a ss s/e amp under $1000 it would be the one. See above. I heard a very good Extreme with a very good source (Stello DA100), so I came away more impressed with it than I might have otherwise.

I thought both the WA6 and WA6 SE were going to be at that meet - I guess they were, but both were stock, except for the Princess 274B (I just saw your review).

Anyway... I guess that pretty well makes the point, though - a stock $1200 (including the tube) WA6 SE sounds as good, or better, as much more expensive amps.

And... possibly... the $900 GS-1 sounds about as good, also.

Pretty amazing, when you think about it... and all the money invested in more costly amps.

 

[Torero]

My Wa6 maxxed arrived yesterday. Upgrades: PDPS, Capacitors, Resistors and Atenuator. Tubes: 5AR4 and RCA 6DE7.

After my Wa6max burn during 8h. Impressions:

- Increase and better bass
- New details that I had not heard never.
- More realistic and natural sound overcoat the voices.
- Little volume