[kukkurovaca]

I find it really interesting that the Argons get talked about in the same breath as a lot of headphones that cost much more, or have a higher reputation. I would have never thought to ask this, because it seems like a silly question, but since you happen to have both, how does the soundstage of the Argon compare to the HD800?
I have never heard them, but I have read about the amazing soundstage of the HD800....and of course everyone says the Argon has great soundstage..but are they comparable?

Well, let me put on the HD800 and queue up Caroline Shaw's Partita for 8 Voices...

::time passes::

It's really hard to articulate. The Argon has great soundstage for a closed headphone, whereas the HD800 has great soundstage for an open headphone, so it really is an unfair comparison. In terms of how near/far sounds actually feel, the difference is not that extreme. But it feels like you're in a much larger space, and the HD800's extreme detail makes positional cues very, very clear.

AFAIK, the magic with the Argon is that the damping is really good, significantly reducing resonance/echoes/whatever that give away to your ears the fact that you're listening to a fully closed headphone. But that can only go so far. And the HD800 isn't just fully open, the ginormo cups also move the driver way farther from your ear than most headphones do, and position it at a steep angle.

To a lesser extent, the ZMF Oval pads, or other thick and angled pads, do the same thing -- they move the driver out from your ears, and they angle it. But they also introduce problems, because they're also reflecting sound around your ear, whereas the HD800 has these cavernous cups with huge openings that loosely surround your ears.

Because of that, the Argon soundstage is pad-dependent. The stock protein leather ZMF Oval pads that I got with the Argon have a wide soundstage, but because the interior of the pad is reflecting sound, I think, they give a sense of being enclosed on the other axes, like listening through two long paper towel tubes sticking straight out from your ears.

Perforated pads help with the soundstage, I presume because the perforations help break up those reflections. (Note: I have no idea what I'm talking about here, I'm just guessing.) With perforated ZMF Ori pads on, the Argon sounds much closer to an open headphone. But that comes at the cost of some bass, which makes them less fun when listening to some material.

I just now tried swapping between the perforated Ori pads and the Brainwavz hybrid pads that came with the Massdrop T-X0, and I think they're a good compromise. Soundstage not as good ad as the Ori, but better bass. They're not angled though, which sucks. There is an angled version of those pads, I don't know why Massdrop didn't use those. It's only like a $2 price difference. The Brainwavz foam isn't as nice (or as thick) as the foam ZMF uses, but otherwise that would probably be almost perfect.

Anyway, tl;dr, the Argon sounstage is good, but not HD800 good. That being said, the HD800 is a weird and finicky headphone and can be very fatiguing with some music and some sources. It's amazing sometimes, whereas the Argon is very good all the time.

 

[HiFiRebel]

@HiFiRebel I'm in a similar boat with an argon mk2 on the way from a fellow head-fier. I spent a lot of time browsing this thread wondering if my objective2 would be up for the task. There were a couple people saying it powered the argons fine.
I have some mods on the way that will increase the output of the amp a bit (o2 booster board + 15v rail mod). I'm mainly modding because it's fun, but I think it's good to heed advice about listening to the headphones first before buying a new amp.
To give an idea of what under-powered planars sounded like (to me)...I was running my he400i off of a Fiio e17k (a usb powered amp) before I got the o2. I found the vocals sounded great in isolation, but had trouble maintaining that clarity when there was any bass. The vocals were significantly veiled behind the bass. It wasn't until I upgraded to a powered amp that the problem went away. In my experience, it was quite easy to tell that the headphones were really under powered. Hopefully that helps you decide if you need an amp upgrade after you've had a listen on your current setup.

Thank you. The explanation of what I can expect if my dac/amp is not powerful enough is very much appreciated, as I am worried that I won't simply know that there is a problem and will judge the headphones as is. On the other hand, I might convince myself that there is problem, while it's not there, and buy another amp only to see that it was a waste of time. Another thing that might happen is that I will keep listening to the headphones without realising that they could sound so much better with a different amp. All of that is in the back of my head. For that reason I have been already checking out amp reviews. Watched Zeos' Emotiva A-100 review. Also looked for them in UK again (so much more expensive than in US). Also checked its thread here in the forums. Of course, I would prefer not to have to buy another amp so soon after buying so much other gear, but if I have to, I will need to think about another unit.

My dac/amp (FX Audio DAC X6) is mains powered but it is a cheap unit, so it will be interesting to see if it will be ok driving such power hungry headphones (and if I actually realise).

EDIT: So I just rewatched Zeos' FX Audio X6 review and he even mentions the MK3's, but never comments on it, just makes this kind of "not sure" sound when talking about will it be able to drive them. He has also mentioned that while this is a good amp for easy to drive headphones, while you connect something really hard to drive it might lack low end. Which is not ideal at all, because I'm buying the headphones because of its famous low end. Looks like I will be needing something else. I will try hard to resist buying something before I get the headphones though. Thinking back about the cheap dac purchase, it might not have been my smartest decision. I am usually a fan of buying something good once, than buying cheap units and then upgrading. Once again, this theory seems to be at work here. Anyway, maybe I will look for something second hand. I wish there was a list of amps/dacs that could run hard to drive headphones without costing many hundreds.

DAC review if anyone's interested:

 

[HiFiRebel]

Actually, as I am very close from ordering now, it is my last chance to decide if I want to future proof myself and go for balanced, or should I not worry about it. Am I right thinking that I can run a "balanced" set from any (balanced or not) amp, but if I decide in future to go with balanced amp, I will have the set of headphones that I can pair it with.

Also am I right thinking that balanced only works with XLR cable. If I just use a normal jack to jack cable, it will be unbalanced (and still work with unbalanced amp), but when I use jack to XLR and balanced amp, the set becomes balanced?

Basically trying to decide if I prefer to have balanced or $35 in my pocket lol

EDIT: OK, please excuse me spamming this thread with my noob questions. I think I have decided now to go for Argons MK3 and Emotiva A-100 combo. I just want to have it done and over and don't have to buy another music equipment for a good while. This sounds like it might be just the right combo to achieve that.

 

[HiFiRebel]

Aaaand ordered. Now the wait begins...

And also the hunt for Emotiva A100

 

[Cruelhand Luke]

Aaaand ordered. Now the wait begins...

And also the hunt for Emotiva A100

If I remember correctly you already have a Fidelio X2? I am really curious to see how the two compare.

 

[HiFiRebel]

If I remember correctly you already have a Fidelio L2? I am really curious to see how the two compare.

Fidelio X2. It will be quite a while before I can compare them

 

[Cruelhand Luke]

Fidelio X2. It will be quite a while before I can compare them

You will most likely love the Argon....I can't feel sorry for you having to wait. I mean, boo hoo, you only have the X2 to listen to?

 

[HiFiRebel]

You will most likely love the Argon....I can't feel sorry for you having to wait. I mean, boo hoo, you only have the X2 to listen to?

lol

You can feel sorry for my family as they are the reason for buying a second set of headphones. I am happy with X2's but they moan about the music coming from my room at night (X2's leak so much noise), hence my search for closed headphones. They will have to wait another 3 months before the Argons get here while still listening to my music at night... boo hoo indeed

Effectively, they have forced me to buy another (expensive ) set of headphones and an amp too... at least that is the official version

 

[Cruelhand Luke]

Well, let me put on the HD800 and queue up Caroline Shaw's Partita for 8 Voices...

::time passes::

It's really hard to articulate. The Argon has great soundstage for a closed headphone, whereas the HD800 has great soundstage for an open headphone, so it really is an unfair comparison. In terms of how near/far sounds actually feel, the difference is not that extreme. But it feels like you're in a much larger space, and the HD800's extreme detail makes positional cues very, very clear.

AFAIK, the magic with the Argon is that the damping is really good, significantly reducing resonance/echoes/whatever that give away to your ears the fact that you're listening to a fully closed headphone. But that can only go so far. And the HD800 isn't just fully open, the ginormo cups also move the driver way farther from your ear than most headphones do, and position it at a steep angle.

To a lesser extent, the ZMF Oval pads, or other thick and angled pads, do the same thing -- they move the driver out from your ears, and they angle it. But they also introduce problems, because they're also reflecting sound around your ear, whereas the HD800 has these cavernous cups with huge openings that loosely surround your ears.

Because of that, the Argon soundstage is pad-dependent. The stock protein leather ZMF Oval pads that I got with the Argon have a wide soundstage, but because the interior of the pad is reflecting sound, I think, they give a sense of being enclosed on the other axes, like listening through two long paper towel tubes sticking straight out from your ears.

Perforated pads help with the soundstage, I presume because the perforations help break up those reflections. (Note: I have no idea what I'm talking about here, I'm just guessing.) With perforated ZMF Ori pads on, the Argon sounds much closer to an open headphone. But that comes at the cost of some bass, which makes them less fun when listening to some material.

I just now tried swapping between the perforated Ori pads and the Brainwavz hybrid pads that came with the Massdrop T-X0, and I think they're a good compromise. Soundstage not as good ad as the Ori, but better bass. They're not angled though, which sucks. There is an angled version of those pads, I don't know why Massdrop didn't use those. It's only like a $2 price difference. The Brainwavz foam isn't as nice (or as thick) as the foam ZMF uses, but otherwise that would probably be almost perfect.

Anyway, tl;dr, the Argon sounstage is good, but not HD800 good. That being said, the HD800 is a weird and finicky headphone and can be very fatiguing with some music and some sources. It's amazing sometimes, whereas the Argon is very good all the time.

Thanks for the comparison. I honestly would have never thought to ask because they are so different, I would not have thought it worth comparing. It's kind of cool to hear how my new favorite headphones compare to various legendary headphones.

 

[renugaid]

If I remember correctly you already have a Fidelio X2? I am really curious to see how the two compare.

Just scored myself a Fidelio X1 for cheap. When they come in I'll compare as they seem to be close enough to the X2.

 

[CrispApple]

I've been seeing a lot of good things about Planar Magnetic headphones, really want to grab a pair.
Adding the MK3s to my list.

 

[Azzere]

Actually, as I am very close from ordering now, it is my last chance to decide if I want to future proof myself and go for balanced, or should I not worry about it. Am I right thinking that I can run a "balanced" set from any (balanced or not) amp, but if I decide in future to go with balanced amp, I will have the set of headphones that I can pair it with.

Also am I right thinking that balanced only works with XLR cable. If I just use a normal jack to jack cable, it will be unbalanced (and still work with unbalanced amp), but when I use jack to XLR and balanced amp, the set becomes balanced?

Basically trying to decide if I prefer to have balanced or $35 in my pocket lol

EDIT: OK, please excuse me spamming this thread with my noob questions. I think I have decided now to go for Argons MK3 and Emotiva A-100 combo. I just want to have it done and over and don't have to buy another music equipment for a good while. This sounds like it might be just the right combo to achieve that.

Might be a little late, but I think one extra benefit to getting the balanced jack option even if you don't plan on running balanced would be replacing the stock 3.5mm jack, which I hear is a common failure point on the Fostex T-series.

 

[cobrabucket]

Might be a little late, but I think one extra benefit to getting the balanced jack option even if you don't plan on running balanced would be replacing the stock 3.5mm jack, which I hear is a common failure point on the Fostex T-series.

/\ This. 100%. You can still use a normal cable with single-ended amps and can be ready if/when you do go balanced.

 

[HiFiRebel]

Thanks @Azzere and @cobrabucket I have already ordered and paid. I wonder if I can still change it. I will email Ryan

 

[cobrabucket]

Thanks @Azzere and @cobrabucket I have already ordered and paid. I wonder if I can still change it. I will email Ryan

I bet you could email them and change it if you wanted. Obviously, you might have to pay the difference for the upgrade. I asked if they could change the type of pads I ordered and they emailed back and said "ok". I'm sure the sooner the better, but shouldn't be an issue.