I'd rather get a Rebelamp instead of Topping stuff, but i also don't have a Tungsten here to check out that combo...
Mod House Audio Tungsten - Planar Magnetic Headphones - Impressions and Discussion
- Thread starter ckhirnigs113
- Start date
Melineous
Head-Fier
I have a Mjolnir 3, Jot 2, a thx amp, and my friend has a Topping x70 stack. Tungsten should be here tomorrow so I'll give it a run through on a bunch of stuff, and a comparison to some other headphones.
Also curious about which DAC (or DACs) you use, and sonic differences based on SE vs Balanced input to each of the amps if your DAC has both output options.
Absolutely - has plenty of power and tough to beat at $250 on Apos. With that said, spending $1.5-$2k on headphones to pair with a < $300 amp isn't likely going to be something most will want to do and of course many don't find Toppings to sound particularly engaging compared to other options.
If you can stretch your budget to $1-1.5k then Vioelectric V202 & 222 and Gustard H26 start to look like very attractive options.
Slackaveli
Headphoneus Supremus
Oh, sweet, looking forward to your impressions. You've got a fun couple of days ahead.
KipFox
100+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2010
- Posts
- 149
- Likes
- 121
Oh I agree 100%, that's why I'm pairing it with a V281LE. But it seems like there is a lot of interest and request from folks looking for sub 1k solutions. I doubt the A30Pro is perfect but it may be a start for some.
+1 to this
Last edited:
Melineous
Head-Fier
My main dac is the bifrost 2 og. I really only run it balanced because my gaming PC and 3d printer are near it so potential for noise is very high, and I really can't stand the buzzing.Also curious about which DAC (or DACs) you use, and sonic differences based on SE vs Balanced input to each of the amps if your DAC has both output options.
I'll upgrade one day to something bigger and test for differences, but for now BF2 is the best thing I have.
Melineous
Head-Fier
Yeah, I just wish there was a high impedance tube amp somewhere in the line up. Not interested in tube volatility or the tube rabbit hole, but they do sound amazing.
streaml1ne
100+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2007
- Posts
- 125
- Likes
- 504
MJ3 and Jot 2 do fine with single sided Tungstens so they should have no problem whether you got SS or DS Tungsten. Can't comment on the THX and Topping stuff.
Last edited:
Slackaveli
Headphoneus Supremus
If one is considering Topping I think you'd have to go for the $499 A70.
Yeah, I've been paying close attention to all of the reviews & discussion, and while pretty much everyone universally agrees that Tungsten is "competitive" with Susvara at a fraction of the price, I haven't heard anyone legit claim that it's "better". I think that's an important distinction to make. Not to diminish Tungsten at all - it is without question a market disruptive product. But we should temper the hype train with a healthy dose of reality, too.
That said, I think there is indeed a very good chance Hifiman drops the price of Susvara soon and/or introduces a major update, in no small part thanks to Tungsten, Caldera, & Empyrean II applying serious pressure to the reigning king of planars.
both optimally driven, I think the Susvara is still unbeatable.
but I love the Tungsten and find them so different, that a comparison of which is “bettter” isn’t that relevant imho. It’s more about what is better suited to your tastes (or what you want to add to complement; these two are extremely additive vs substitutive in one’s collective, if the option exists).
That's an interesting take, IMO. Most of what I've heard/read is that they perform along the same lines. Would you mind expanding a bit on how you think they are different? I'm genuinely deciding between them, so all insights are appreciated.
That's an interesting take, IMO. Most of what I've heard/read is that they perform along the same lines. Would you mind expanding a bit on how you think they are different? I'm genuinely deciding between them, so all insights are appreciated.
The Susvara is more technically complete, offering superior resolution, soundstage, and instrument separation. It also offers a bit more treble extension.
Technicalities aside, they offer distinctively different presentations - the Susvara is fast and spacious; the Tungsten at the same time offers a slightly warmer presentation, and its notes are thicker and weightier.
I don’t find I lack anything when I listen to the Susvara; nor do I find that I lack anything when I listen to the Tungsten. On their own, they are both wonderfully complete headphones. But their strengths differ. If you want a more “dense” and texture presentation, go with the Tungsten; if you want a speedier and more specious presentation with utmost resolution and accuracy in layering instruments, go with the Susvara (if you can, go with both!). They are both great across the board on their own. They just offers a different experience.
I have a Holo Bliss and May, and when I compare the Tungsten (DS, with Caldera Ultra perforated pads) and Susvara with the supplied Viking Weave cable made for Tungsten, this is what I observe:
audiocheck.net lets you test things like dynamic range and frequency tone sweeps. Both headphones perform well in these tests, but the Tungsten has about 6 more DB in dynamic range compared to the Susvara. I suspect that the higher impedance of the Tungsten gives it better driver control with the Bliss. The Tungsten feels a bit more bassy in the bass tests compared to Susvara.
The Viking weave cable is pure copper so, if you're not familiar with what that does to the Susvara, it tends to make it sound warmer while softening the treble a bit, but compared to my other cables, the Viking weave cable does pretty well in other technicalities.
Now for a comparison of songs between Tungsten and Susvara, mainly using Apple Music on MacOS (which does compromise the sound a bit since you don't get exclusive access to the DAC)
Michael Jackson's Billie Jean. I would advise you watch videos on how Billie Jean is recorded. It helps you figure out how the timbre of the instruments should sound since they tend to use synth sounds a bit. On of the main things about Bille Jean is that Michael Jackson is constantly snapping his fingers while singing. The snapping is on the vocal track, which shouldn't make a difference really to the presentation but it's a factoid to think about. On Tungsten, it sounds like real fingers snapping, on Susvara it sounds like a percussive beat, not fingers snapping. I don't know why the Susvara is losing resolution here, but I know that the Susvara can resolve this because a couple of years ago, a friend of mine sent me different masterings of Bille Jean, and I was able to hear the finger snapping clearly on some of the masterings. I think it's because Apple Music is not locking the sound. That being said, this test is representative of a real world use, where I'm using streaming service as is.
Other characteristics: the drum beat which is kind of like a leather whip sound, sounds better on Tungsten, and imaging is more engaging on the Tungsten. The Thriller album in general is a good soundstage and imaging test for headphones, and I get good imaging and separation with both Tungsten and Susvara. Susvara does treble better just because it floats higher in my head, but Tungsten's treble is just as sharp and resolving but without sounding higher in my head. But the floatiness makes treble stand out better. That being said I like the Tungsten more over Susvara for this song because the imaging and staging is more engaging.
Blind by Korn. I like this song because it's a good test for sub bass that rumbles. It has also lots of layering. The popularity of Korn during their debut year made the concept of nu-metal a popular thing, but I don't think they're the first, but it's definitely a new kind of sound. The song starts with a high hat pattern then some guitar strumming. On Susvara, the high hat seems to image higher on a "z-axis" while the tungsten is more centered. When the bass guitar kicks in, Susvara has a bit more of a sub bass rumble, while the Tungsten it's there but you don't feel it as much. If you EQ the Subbass it gets closer, but I haven't tried going over the top to get the sub bass to the same level. But a bit of EQ (Apple Music EQ) does seem to make it feel better. When the lead singer is singing, there's a backing vocal that overlays the main lines. On Susvara it seems to stay in the background, and fade away, while on Tungsten I seem to hear all the words better and clearer. The layering is better on Tungsten, or at least it's more detailed and engaging to my ears. In busy passages of the song, the Tungsten bass can seem a bit flat in the bass, but otherwise other technicalities shine through. Overall impression of Susvara vs Tungsten for this song: Susvara has rumbling sub bass, seems more focused on the main vocals, has different imaging for treble; Tungsten has more engaging layering and dynamics, emphasizing parts of the song that you wouldn't normally hear, making the song a bit more haunting, so I favor the Tungsten for this. To get more sub bass, I can use a different amp like a Enleum 23-RM or a Soncoz SGP1, so in this regard, I think the Tungsten is better.
I think I'll stop here with detailed analysis by song, but here are some other short impressions:
De La Soul 3 feet and rising: Susvara has that sub bass going for it, it adds a bit more bop to the hip songs; Tungsten has more dynamics, I like the layering of instruments adds a bit more depth to the song that the Susvara lacks. Susvara treble isn't much of a factor here.
Hip hop in general seems to thump more on Susvara, it seems more reference like, but Tungsten makes it more engaging in some areas.
Albums which are "home recordings" or "demos" sound clean on Susvara, but sound a bit more expansive on the Tungsten.
Female vocals are much better on Tungsten than Susvara. This is expected because Ryan tuned Tungsten using many female vocalists. Fullness of voice is probably on SS Tungsten but I bet with a better amp or other accessories I can get SS like beauty. I had the fortune to listen to the prototype at CanJam NYC '23, and I liked that better, but DS isn't a slouch.
General speed seems about equal on Susvara and Tungsten. Maybe Tungsten edges Susvara on timbre on fast pieces.
Imaging seems a little better on Tungsten, but I think that's because there's a bit more emphasis.
Soundstage is a little harder to judge, I'd say Susvara can sound a bit wider, but Tungsten lets you hear more of reverb or whatever in the edges.
Overall, the Susvara still holds it weight, it presents music in a cohesive way that sounds closer to reference (reference being that the music sounds similar to other sound systems in terms of overall dynamic expression); but it can border on boring sometimes. Tungsten is a real Susvara challenger, it can keep up with speed, resolution, timbre, imaging, and soundstage. It's tuning is such that it makes music more engaging, it brings out sounds that are pushed to the back more to the front, making a familiar song sound different but still good, and it's treble is such that while not ethereal is still clear and sharp and in line with the rest of the music in terms of 3dness. It might not (at least with my configuration) sound as reference as Susvara but those differences could mean more excitement, engagement, fun. While Susvara is a certain kind of sound, I feel that Tungsten gives me a bit of Abyss 1266, LCD-5, and Susvara. For a 2K USD headphone, it delivers a ton of value that competes well with the summit tier headphones.
audiocheck.net lets you test things like dynamic range and frequency tone sweeps. Both headphones perform well in these tests, but the Tungsten has about 6 more DB in dynamic range compared to the Susvara. I suspect that the higher impedance of the Tungsten gives it better driver control with the Bliss. The Tungsten feels a bit more bassy in the bass tests compared to Susvara.
The Viking weave cable is pure copper so, if you're not familiar with what that does to the Susvara, it tends to make it sound warmer while softening the treble a bit, but compared to my other cables, the Viking weave cable does pretty well in other technicalities.
Now for a comparison of songs between Tungsten and Susvara, mainly using Apple Music on MacOS (which does compromise the sound a bit since you don't get exclusive access to the DAC)
Michael Jackson's Billie Jean. I would advise you watch videos on how Billie Jean is recorded. It helps you figure out how the timbre of the instruments should sound since they tend to use synth sounds a bit. On of the main things about Bille Jean is that Michael Jackson is constantly snapping his fingers while singing. The snapping is on the vocal track, which shouldn't make a difference really to the presentation but it's a factoid to think about. On Tungsten, it sounds like real fingers snapping, on Susvara it sounds like a percussive beat, not fingers snapping. I don't know why the Susvara is losing resolution here, but I know that the Susvara can resolve this because a couple of years ago, a friend of mine sent me different masterings of Bille Jean, and I was able to hear the finger snapping clearly on some of the masterings. I think it's because Apple Music is not locking the sound. That being said, this test is representative of a real world use, where I'm using streaming service as is.
Other characteristics: the drum beat which is kind of like a leather whip sound, sounds better on Tungsten, and imaging is more engaging on the Tungsten. The Thriller album in general is a good soundstage and imaging test for headphones, and I get good imaging and separation with both Tungsten and Susvara. Susvara does treble better just because it floats higher in my head, but Tungsten's treble is just as sharp and resolving but without sounding higher in my head. But the floatiness makes treble stand out better. That being said I like the Tungsten more over Susvara for this song because the imaging and staging is more engaging.
Blind by Korn. I like this song because it's a good test for sub bass that rumbles. It has also lots of layering. The popularity of Korn during their debut year made the concept of nu-metal a popular thing, but I don't think they're the first, but it's definitely a new kind of sound. The song starts with a high hat pattern then some guitar strumming. On Susvara, the high hat seems to image higher on a "z-axis" while the tungsten is more centered. When the bass guitar kicks in, Susvara has a bit more of a sub bass rumble, while the Tungsten it's there but you don't feel it as much. If you EQ the Subbass it gets closer, but I haven't tried going over the top to get the sub bass to the same level. But a bit of EQ (Apple Music EQ) does seem to make it feel better. When the lead singer is singing, there's a backing vocal that overlays the main lines. On Susvara it seems to stay in the background, and fade away, while on Tungsten I seem to hear all the words better and clearer. The layering is better on Tungsten, or at least it's more detailed and engaging to my ears. In busy passages of the song, the Tungsten bass can seem a bit flat in the bass, but otherwise other technicalities shine through. Overall impression of Susvara vs Tungsten for this song: Susvara has rumbling sub bass, seems more focused on the main vocals, has different imaging for treble; Tungsten has more engaging layering and dynamics, emphasizing parts of the song that you wouldn't normally hear, making the song a bit more haunting, so I favor the Tungsten for this. To get more sub bass, I can use a different amp like a Enleum 23-RM or a Soncoz SGP1, so in this regard, I think the Tungsten is better.
I think I'll stop here with detailed analysis by song, but here are some other short impressions:
De La Soul 3 feet and rising: Susvara has that sub bass going for it, it adds a bit more bop to the hip songs; Tungsten has more dynamics, I like the layering of instruments adds a bit more depth to the song that the Susvara lacks. Susvara treble isn't much of a factor here.
Hip hop in general seems to thump more on Susvara, it seems more reference like, but Tungsten makes it more engaging in some areas.
Albums which are "home recordings" or "demos" sound clean on Susvara, but sound a bit more expansive on the Tungsten.
Female vocals are much better on Tungsten than Susvara. This is expected because Ryan tuned Tungsten using many female vocalists. Fullness of voice is probably on SS Tungsten but I bet with a better amp or other accessories I can get SS like beauty. I had the fortune to listen to the prototype at CanJam NYC '23, and I liked that better, but DS isn't a slouch.
General speed seems about equal on Susvara and Tungsten. Maybe Tungsten edges Susvara on timbre on fast pieces.
Imaging seems a little better on Tungsten, but I think that's because there's a bit more emphasis.
Soundstage is a little harder to judge, I'd say Susvara can sound a bit wider, but Tungsten lets you hear more of reverb or whatever in the edges.
Overall, the Susvara still holds it weight, it presents music in a cohesive way that sounds closer to reference (reference being that the music sounds similar to other sound systems in terms of overall dynamic expression); but it can border on boring sometimes. Tungsten is a real Susvara challenger, it can keep up with speed, resolution, timbre, imaging, and soundstage. It's tuning is such that it makes music more engaging, it brings out sounds that are pushed to the back more to the front, making a familiar song sound different but still good, and it's treble is such that while not ethereal is still clear and sharp and in line with the rest of the music in terms of 3dness. It might not (at least with my configuration) sound as reference as Susvara but those differences could mean more excitement, engagement, fun. While Susvara is a certain kind of sound, I feel that Tungsten gives me a bit of Abyss 1266, LCD-5, and Susvara. For a 2K USD headphone, it delivers a ton of value that competes well with the summit tier headphones.
Users who are viewing this thread
