Michael Jackson VERDICT REACHED
Jun 14, 2005 at 9:29 PM Post #106 of 123
Read Gore Vidal's "Shredding the Bill of Rights," collected in "The Last Empire." Also here. It is a sobering and serious look at the slow but sure erosion of the rights of the average American. Either you believe him, or you don't, but he raises the questions fundamental to the direction that this thread seems now to take.
 
Jun 14, 2005 at 9:54 PM Post #107 of 123
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I'm sorry, but this is an absolutely ridiculous statement. The reason why our judicial system is structured the way it is to minimize erroneous and arbitrary decisions. Instead of spewing out mindless drivel, actually think about how your system of justice would affect all those who ever were, are, or will be part of the judicial process.


beats the hell out of the old "hang them all and let god sort them out" lynching mentality.


The jury system is one where average citizens are asked to weigh all the evidence and make a decision based on both what is plausible and who they beleive to be truthful with ALL the evidence from both sides of the argument.
My thought is not only do they mostly do a thankless job right but this beats the heck out of any elitist system where only the elite cast judgement.I will take joe average deciding my fate if I ever end up in a trial situation over any legal expert or political figure with an agenda.
 
Jun 14, 2005 at 11:12 PM Post #108 of 123
A couple of us are getting a bit overheated with our rhetoric. Please think before you post, and keep it civil.
 
Jun 14, 2005 at 11:50 PM Post #109 of 123
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Originally Posted by elrod-tom
A couple of us are getting a bit overheated with our rhetoric. Please think before you post, and keep it civil.


Think before we post? Aww come on Uncle Tom, that's not a fair request.
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Jun 14, 2005 at 11:57 PM Post #110 of 123
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Originally Posted by rickcr42
beats the hell out of the old "hang them all and let god sort them out" lynching mentality.


Well that would fix the population, resource, and over-crowding-jails problems...


Quote:

The jury system is one where average citizens are asked to weigh all the evidence and make a decision based on both what is plausible and who they beleve to be truthful with ALL the evidence from both sides of the argument.
My thought is not only do they mostly do a thankless job right but this beats the haeck out of any elitist system where only the elite cast judgement.I will take joe average deciding my fate if I ever end up in a trial situation over any legal expert or political figure with an agenda.


On paper this system is the best. But, like Capitalism, "the best" still has much room for improvement. The average joe is simplistic, unintelligent, uninformed, (not to mention potentially apathetic) and has biases as well, many times subconscious or unconscious. Just because they don't have a sinister agenda doesn't mean they will instantly be a neutral and effective party.
 
Jun 15, 2005 at 1:09 AM Post #111 of 123
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Originally Posted by Sduibek
"Alterity of others" is a meaningless redundancy, and you're questioning others' intelligence?
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Anyhoo, I will admit that i'm selfish
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But I would not equate selfishness to a lack of intelligence. Sometimes I swear in public precisely because it bothers others. Why? Because no one i've ever met has a logical reason for disliking swear words. At least not the way I use them (which is, of course, not every 3 syllables). If you don't have good reasoning for your beliefs, I choose to devalue them. It's called logical analysis. If that makes me unintelligent in your eyes, more power to ya.



An adjective used to describe a noun whose essence is defined by, but not limited to that adjective is not redundant, but rather focuses on the point being brought out. Alterity is to be understood in its infinity in a very Levinasian sense; the other demands an ethical regard quite precisely because of the way his otherness cannot be comprehended via logical analysis or any other totalizing impetus. I certainly hope you dont consider intelligence to be defined by what formal analytic processes are capable of grasping, because there's so much negative dialectic and thought that circumscribe near every cerebration and practice. Choosing to devalue a system for yourself is one thing, but to disregard your obligations to the other by doing the same to him is the very definition of the unethical. Rest assured you're not the smartest person alive (and by no means am I placing myself anywhere in the gamut - this isnt a comparision) and that another person may have reasons you're incapable of seeing, but more importantly, the analytic is completely irrelevant when dealing with the infinity that "defines" the others' alterity. Ref. Levinas for more on this.

Note: This was a completely dispassionate speech. I hold nothing against Sduibek for any reason nor should anything in this message be taken with any such intention. I do wish this could be presumed....
 
Jun 15, 2005 at 7:06 AM Post #112 of 123
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sduibek
The average joe is simplistic, unintelligent, uninformed, (not to mention potentially apathetic) and has biases as well, many times subconscious or unconscious.


It'd be opening a large can of worms for the government to screen prospective jurors based on their level of enlightenment. Just who in the hell defines the criteria for enlightenment? Who is informed and who is uninformed? Who is complex and who is simple?
 
Jun 15, 2005 at 7:20 AM Post #113 of 123
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sduibek
The average joe is simplistic, unintelligent, uninformed, (not to mention potentially apathetic) and has biases as well, many times subconscious or unconscious. Just because they don't have a sinister agenda doesn't mean they will instantly be a neutral and effective party.


Well jeez, who on earth could you pick that didn't have biases? I haven't met a single soul in my life who I could consider to be unbiased under any situation, even amongst those I considered to have a greater intelligence than my own (a feat in itself, mind you
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).

Now, I have met quite a few people that I might consider to be an "average joe" who still thought that the "average joe" was simplistic, unintelligent, etc. etc. We all like to think we're better than everyone else, when it's probably much closer to the truth that noone really is.
 
Jun 15, 2005 at 2:04 PM Post #114 of 123
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sduibek
The average joe is simplistic, unintelligent, uninformed, (not to mention potentially apathetic) and has biases as well, many times subconscious or unconscious. Just because they don't have a sinister agenda doesn't mean they will instantly be a neutral and effective party.


Yeah, that's why you get 12 of them to decide unanimously.
 
Jun 15, 2005 at 2:14 PM Post #115 of 123
Maybe no one took note of the fact but sduibek is not able to answer posts directed at him for obvious reasons so maybe it would be best to stay more to the topic than to answer specifics from a person not able to make a counter at this time.

thanks

Rickmonster
 
Jun 15, 2005 at 3:06 PM Post #116 of 123
Oops, sorry Rick, I didn't notice that. Anyway, I remember reading a news article the other day talking about how the Jackson story wasn't as big as the news outlets were anticipating. They were talking about how many people just didn't really care - they pointed out how the Peterson case drew much more attention and how Jacko was repeatedly bumped out of the spotlight by lightweight stories like the Runaway Bride. This brings up some interesting questions. Mainly, I suppose we should ask why is the news emphasizing this story so heavily. I think the answer is not that we have a pathetic society and we're all a bunch of voyeurs or anything like that.

I think what happened is that we now have lots of cable news networks that need to fill 24hrs of programming every day and if they think people will tune in to watch Jacko the Wacko, that's what they'll show. Personally, I loosely followed the Jackson case and I feel it is a legitimate news item, but I would have preferred to see CNN, CNBC, FOXNews, CNN.com, etc. devote more time to coverage of international events and other hard news items.

People will now point out how the BBC has much more balanced coverage and blah blah blah but they forget that the BBC is funded by the British government. They don't have to get good ratings to draw in advertising revenue - CNN and the like do need to compete for viewers and let's face it, to the average person, Michael Jackson, International Pop Star and Renowned Weirdo on trial for child molestation is more of a draw than the EU constitutional referendum results in the Netherlands.

Or at least it should be...the report that the trial didn't generate as much interest as anticipated is very interesting.
 
Jun 15, 2005 at 3:32 PM Post #117 of 123
Justice: Punishing the guilty.

Injustice: Punishing the innocent.

What bugs me about this current discussion is some of you either:

1. Know he's guilty based on your own person feelings.
2. Don't care if he's guilty or not and think he should be locked up for being different than everyone else.

I can't decide which is worse. On one hand, you weren't in court, you weren't there when the situtation occured, and you don't really know anything beyond what the media has hand fed you. This is the same media that has coined the term Jacko, and reports on what the guy WEARS TO COURT. One might be able to say, the media has ulterior motives when it comes to representing this spectacle. The word sensationlism comes to mind.

So congratulations Jackson, you've been tried by the media, and your jury was the American public who doesn't care whether you commited the crime or not... you're still guilty!

On the other hand, you guys are judging someone again, based on what the media represents his life to you about. Granted, I personally think Michael Jackson is a bit disturbed, but who cares! The guy made his success and if he wants to be an eccentric crazy loon, more power to him. IF being an eccentric crazy loon involves manipulating and touching children, than yes, lock that guy up with a 6'6'' dude named Chuck and throw away the key.

He was tried and aqquited. He was innocent until proven guilty, and he wasn't proved to be guilty.

There may be a problem with our courts, but that is how the system works, take it or leave it.

I do have a problem with our jury methods and that the burden of proof is becoming increasingly doubted by mundane things such as character assassanation. If I was on a jury and either side used this, I would automatically be suspect of their case in the first place. Considering if that is all you have to fall back on, the rest of your case is probably flimsy. However, legally, you can ONLY consider what is presented to you in court. So if the defense presents one shred of reasonable doubt, and the prosecution fails to provide offsetting evidence to removed the instilled doubt... guess what; as a citizen it is your RESPONSIBILITY to aquit based on reasonable doubt. Which can be argued as ********, but that's how the system works.

Either way, this entire scenario, media sensation, and subsequent citizen obsession with this trial has made a little bit less proud to call myself an American today. I'm in this discussion to try and point out the problems with people too harsly judging others based on the drivel the media lets leak from the bowels of disinformation hell.

Face it, you (everyone) don't know jack squat about what really happened, and to suggest otherwise is amazingly arrogant.
 
Jun 15, 2005 at 3:56 PM Post #118 of 123
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I think what happened is that we now have lots of cable news networks that need to fill 24hrs of programming every day and if they think people will tune in to watch Jacko the Wacko, that's what they'll show. Personally, I loosely followed the Jackson case and I feel it is a legitimate news item, but I would have preferred to see CNN, CNBC, FOXNews, CNN.com, etc. devote more time to coverage of international events and other hard news items


Called give them what they want.

the American people are becoming a very boring and very undemanding group satisfied with a steady diet of entertainment as news and reality Tv in place of anything with actual content or writing.Why ?

Because we are also a very lazy and mostly stupid people.Folks giving opinions with no actual knowledge and ready to fight or argue a point they do not even understand.
Too lazy and pssive also means easily manipulated by a press that had its own agenda and rather than get information from alternate sources and compare everything we (I mean the collective,not me personally) beleive evrything we are told until it is someone that actually has a stake in things then we distrust so the pricvipals are always liars and third party sources with an axe to grind are to be beleived because conspiracy theories are fun even when laughable to anyone with a funtional brain who actually pays attention.So,to the topic at hand.....

I personally have avoided commenting in this thread on several levels.One this is an issue that there are not too many fence sitters and emotions run high.
Two,there has been a trend to nasty and personal which has been dealt with but while still there not a thing i wished to get involved with as "member" when it was more than obvious I would have to play moderator and to be involved as a duality would not sit well with me.To be involved in a thread with the potential for trouble as a moderator is too close to abuse of power.i would not ever use my position to make a point but once engaged and if it went nasty which meant action it would like like I used my power to make my points.Not good and something i try very hard to avoid being mostly strongly opinionated and usually controversial on most such topics soooooo......away we go to controversy and strong opinion
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My take on the whole thing is there would have been an entirely different trial had this person been a blond haired,blue eyed all american boy.
MJ is a freak who has gone to great lengths to disfigure himself and he looks more like a refugee from a bad cartoon than he does a human that walks amomg us.but weird looks and eccentric behavour is not grounds for being locked up.

Many point to the original charges of a few years back where MJ settled for big bucks as proof of guilt but again,as has been proven in this case and in many others,better to settle sometimes for a flat sum than go broke defending against charges.This is common in most civil suits to avoid bad press,long drawn out trials and in effect to make it go away.The D.A at the time and D.A that was the engine behind this case are one and the same and it was his opinion at the time that one slipped away.

MJ made a song in which he made fun of this DA which it seems pissed him off even more and it became even more personal and more vendetta than justice.He would have his pound of flesh or die trying.

When the announcement was intiially made that the most recent charges were filed this guy called a news conference and at the podium in front of all the cameras was SO gleeful at this announcement it was my thought at the time

"this guy is gonna blow any minute now ! Flat out explode from happiness and spew guts all over the walls !"

Right then and there it wasin my mind the deck was being stacked and that this person should be recused and have no more to do with the actual case but it seemed and still does that no one cared if an official with an obvious personal beef was in control of the sytstem out to get MJ no matter what it took.

Anyone remeber a search warrant he issued to search MJ's hired private detective agency files ? A detective agency part of the defense and an illegal act ?
The "oops,did not realise" excuse was thin at best but yet no action was taken and the public took no notice that an abuse of power was taking place here.
Next was the sheer amount of search warrants issued for neverland.Not happy with what was found they kept going back,and back,and back,and back,and.........
Gues who also was present ? You got it.The DA !
When was the last time you heard of a sitting DA going out with the beat cops and detectives executing a search warrant ? And even that if it hapened would be a rarity and not every single time as was the case here.
What about the gag orders from the judge that in effect silenced the defense while the prosecuting/investigating side leaked information meant to sway public opinion on a damn near daily basis ?
Then there is the "open call" for any and all children molested by MJ to come forward and add weight to the prosecution and what ? Nothing .And this over a period of a year.
Then we get the cast of characters who were witnesses for the prosecution.Every single one a liar or with an axe to grind.Day one of examination by the prosecution and all the news outlets tell you MJ is screwed and how he will be treated in jail.Day two, the cross examination and the entire testimony is shot down simply by pointing to outright lies and/or misstatements.

So my take ? With all the lies,all the deception and all the personal bullsh*t and dirty tricks what other verdict could any thinking jury come up with ?

Whether MJ is or is noty guilty of what some call serial child molestation I do not personally know but if i was on that particular jury with the information i know i would have come back with the same verdict.MJ is not your normal human but neither should he be persecuted and prosecuted for that alone.If he commits a crime and there is evidence to support that justice will be served but liars and those with a personal beef do not stand on the side of justice but are in it for personal reasons and it is tragic they have the powwer to detroy a human before that human is convicted of anything.

Finally,I find it chilling when asked by reprters after the verdict "will you persue this further" the DA said "no comment".............


That man is the one who should be investigated and prosecuted for abusing the public trust and using his position for personal vendtetta


just my opinion folks,means nothing and I am not looking for an argument
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Jun 15, 2005 at 4:14 PM Post #120 of 123
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Originally Posted by gsferrari
I am heading out to buy some of his CDs...I love the music in BAD, Dangerous and Thriller (especially Dangerous).


dude, dont forget "off the wall" - its truly a reference cd as well, the recording is amazing as is a lot of MJ's stuff, especially with Quincy Jones. MJ apparently is a huge audiophile and has tons of tube and vinyl gear, very meticulate and wants his recordings to sound a specific way, which Quincy was more than capable of. Off the wall is also considered a huge landmark in tape analog recording/reproduction, its simply great just get it...and i shall leave again with the lyrics...

"gotta leave your 9 to 5 up on the shelf, and just enjoy yourself, tonight"
 

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