Master Clock Talk

Dec 17, 2022 at 9:52 PM Post #241 of 3,880
Its a very specific device, its converting a fiber optic signal to ethernet. I didn't even know that an aftermarket option existed.

I assume it would replace the existing digital converter? I don't know enough about this type of equipment.
Me too I sorta gave up on tweaking my network too much. I have my files on NAS which connects directly with USB to my system.

Yeah its basically a FMC with a better/good clock and PSU, than the standard FMC, I think.

If I wanted to go that route I think I would setup some kinda system with Sonore and Uptone. Honestly I started to believe more in a good DDC, than spending alot of money on network. If ethernet switches/router is provided with good psu, and decent CAT6/7 cables, I dont see/hear the big advantage in optical/fiber.

My ears are not trained that well I guess😂
 
Dec 18, 2022 at 12:29 AM Post #242 of 3,880
Its a very specific device, its converting a fiber optic signal to ethernet. I didn't even know that an aftermarket option existed.

I assume it would replace the existing digital converter? I don't know enough about this type of equipment.
Yeah its basically a FMC with a better/good clock and PSU, than the standard FMC, I think.

I should say although a little off topic from master clocks, I feel there is some relevance, given how much better my OCK-1 slaved DAC performed in my system when fed what I guess must be ‘cleaner’ (see below) or less jittery (ditto) ethernet data by the LHY SW-8 switch. The delta between external clock on & off is greater with the switch than without. So in theory at least this sort of device that brings galvanic isolation could bring similar and in my case, hopefully additive, improvements. And then there’s the fact the Teradak uses seemingly better oscillators than generic fibre media converters (FMCs).

There’s some other very expensive aftermarket devices that do the same thing, often with the fibre section internal to the box. Then there’s the generic networking FMCs a lot of folk have been using with good results in several threads I’ve been on - R26 & U18 in particular. This sits in between.

In terms of the mechanism of action, as to why FMCs, or for that matter, audiophile switches with no FMC element, work to improve the sound, from what I can tell from my limited reading to date the jury is still out. There’s certainly theories and robust debate. Removal of ‘noise’ riding the ethernet signal and the disruption it causes to the receiving device most likely as increased jitter, the noise assumed electrical or EMF induced, is most commonly often offered up as an explanation. Fibre based galvanic isolation and use of lower noise toroidal power supplies on the downstream/DAC side play into that explanation.

But then there’s a lot of anecdotal evidence that upstream network devices with more precise clocks (eg. EtherRegen switch or my experience with the LHY switch) are better than the same devices with less precise timing. Eg. EtherRegen internal OCXO vs using a higher quality external clock with it. The suggestion being there is less jitter in the signal chain as a result. How to explain this given we are talking about packets of data, with error correction which are buffered and reclocked at the receiving end.

I don’t know. Still educating myself. Not sure there is clear evidence either way but then as the saying goes absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence.

What I do know is that for whatever the reason my DAC (+ ext clock) sounds far better with the SW-8 upstream. So that’s a provisional personal experiential/correlation association tick for the role of both linear PS and OCXO in a network device, which coupled with the experience of others with FMCs and switches, make it more likely to me they may play a role in improving the sound of the Teradak FMC too. All depends on implementation of course, but let’s assume competent wiring, circuit design for now, despite the low price.

So that’s how I’m trying to make sense of things, approaching this FWIW.
 
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Dec 18, 2022 at 7:50 AM Post #243 of 3,880
Me too I sorta gave up on tweaking my network too much. I have my files on NAS which connects directly with USB to my system.

Yeah its basically a FMC with a better/good clock and PSU, than the standard FMC, I think.

If I wanted to go that route I think I would setup some kinda system with Sonore and Uptone. Honestly I started to believe more in a good DDC, than spending alot of money on network. If ethernet switches/router is provided with good psu, and decent CAT6/7 cables, I dont see/hear the big advantage in optical/fiber.

My ears are not trained that well I guess😂
Yeah, I asked Alvin to add a SFP port to the upcoming SW-10 which could make things easier. It will come with a clock input and then one could use a master clock to feed switch, DDC and DAC and be happy...for a while?

I was able to find the Finisar SFP+ Module (FTLX1475D3BTL) which is sold out at many vendors. But then one would pay around 110,- per module and has to get according - (like 250,-) SFP+, 10G converters you are at the same price level as with an ADOT system.

LHY having a switch with SFP (in connection with their accepted clocks, LPS) would seriousley compete with existing SotM, Melco, Mutec, Silent Angle, Innuos solutions.
(US products, I don´t knwo, hate the import)

You´re right, maybe standard fibre kit, LPS for router and converter and a shop owner told me he traded in around 40 pcs. of Audioquest diamonds for Furutch LAN N8 Ncf.
 
Dec 18, 2022 at 7:55 AM Post #244 of 3,880
LHY having a switch with SFP (in connection with their accepted clocks, LPS) would seriousley compete with existing SotM, Melco, Mutec, Silent Angle, Innuos solutions.
(US products, I don´t knwo, hate the import)
I doubt it, since studios don't use hifi switches and don't know anything about any of those brands except Mutec ;)
 
Dec 18, 2022 at 8:16 AM Post #245 of 3,880
I doubt it, since studios don't use hifi switches and don't know anything about any of those brands except Mutec :wink:
Well LAN(*ethernet/fiber)is becoming popular in DAW also.

Merging is based on LAN(*ethernet). RME has a section with AVB/DANTE, with wordclock/bnc. RME even supports the Revenna protocol, which Merging is based on.

(Now imagine that Merging also does PoE/Power over Ethernet/ This will eliminate PSU close to the device…)

I have started to see the point with clocking the ethernet switch now.

We are mostly in the digital layer when we actually discuss things. AMP/Analog does take up a great discussion also, but is a different section. So for DAC DDC and other Digital devices(ethernet,optical etc) to be on the same time makes sense now…
 
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Dec 18, 2022 at 9:15 AM Post #246 of 3,880
@JaMo which SFPs are of good quality, are you using?
What do you mean with 50 micrometers? I only see - single or multimod - 850 or 1310 nm glassfiber cables/hardware!
50 micrometers equals 850 nm wave length (Multimode). My SFP's are both previous used from the brands Cisco and Avago. Both versions work in the PT-Link MC220L's
 

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Dec 18, 2022 at 10:11 AM Post #247 of 3,880
You raise some good questions I’d be interested in the answers to also.

I recently got the LHY SW-8 switch which after running in for two weeks makes a great difference in combination with my LHY Ock-1. Significantly deeper soundstage, sense of acoustic space, decay is extended, more and blacker space around instruments, vocalists. The two are synergistic and greater than the sum of the parts - everything snaps into place with terrific focus. It becomes clear when AB’ing one without the other, eg reverting to my stock wifi router with stock PS. Yes comparing 🍏 and 🍊 I know. And/or toggling ext clock on/off.

I have not tried fibre converters yet but am interested in how they might compare to or add to the effect of the switch.

This might be of interest to you and others. Alpha Audio blind live test comparing a lot of switches including the LHY and a Delock fibre convertor.

https://www.youtube.com/live/8HNMMksiD_Q?feature=share
@Jake2
Thanks for the heads up about the Youtube link. I followed the test of all 11 switches. They will publish the outcome of the testing in the next week. https://alpha-audio.nl/ (Dutch) and later on https://alpha-audio.net/ (English)
The LHY SW-8 was in the list of items tested.
/Jan
 
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Dec 18, 2022 at 10:29 AM Post #249 of 3,880
@Jake2
Thanks for the heads up about the Youtube link. I followed the test of all 11 switches. They will publish the outcome of the testing in the next week. https://alpha-audio.nl/ (Dutch) and later on https://alpha-audio.net/ (English)
The LHY OCK-2 was in the list of items tested.
/Jan
Cheers. Spoiler alert.. I didn't catch it live but just jumping to the end of the vid to their conclusions chat it seems the LHY wasnt one of their blind listener's favoured switches. Nor was the other switch with an OCXO. I look forward to their write up,. None of which BTW makes me doubt my (great) impressions of the LHY in my system but then to be fair I have only compared it to a sample of one.. a stock wifi router (not even a dedicated switch) with switching PS. Not exactly tough competition.. I look forward to trying/adding a FMC in due course.

Edit- presume you mean the LHY SW-8 switch (not OCK-2) to which I am referring above
 
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Dec 18, 2022 at 10:30 AM Post #250 of 3,880
Really enjoying this discussion. I have some experience with testing switches and various SFPs to share.

1. Most SFPs I tried had their own signature. They do not all sound the same.
2. I have found tremendous benefit in fiber gaping two areas of my system. A. Fiber gaping my noisy wireless network with a standard sfp device. B. Fiber gap between my router and server (I have two Buffalo BS-GS2016 switches with smps removed, Sean Jacobs DC3 powered between my Edgerouter 4(also modded and fed lps power) and Etherregen).
3. The SFP+ modules were increasing in popularity over on AudiophileStyle around the time I decided to stick with these, which are not sfp+: https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/II-VI-Finisar/FTLF1321P1BTL?qs=D%2B6gCNt/g2AFvV5LBXQhDA== . I have stood with these and O2S single mode fiber into my server.
4. The power you feed a switch will definitely have an impact on what you’re hearing. I have a had Paul Hynes SR7T rail, a DC3 and now a DC4 powering my Etherregen and they all sounded different from each other.
5. The benefits of reclocking a switch are definitely audible, despite what some believe.
5. Unrelated to clocks, but with the Edgerouter X SFP and Edgerouter 4, I heard sound quality gains when I created a dedicated vlan for my audio gear.

Cheers,
-Rob
 
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Dec 18, 2022 at 10:41 AM Post #252 of 3,880
Cheers. Spoiler alert.. I didn't catch it live but just jumping to the end of the vid to their conclusions chat it seems the LHY wasnt one of their blind listener's favoured switches. Nor was the other switch with an OCXO. I look forward to their write up,. None of which BTW makes me doubt my (great) impressions of the LHY in my system but then to be fair I have only compared it to a sample of one.. a stock wifi router (not even a dedicated switch) with switching PS. Not exactly tough competition.. I look forward to trying/adding a FMC in due course.

Edit- presume you mean the LHY SW-8 switch (not OCK-2) to which I am referring above
Yes, it was the LHY SW-8 and nothing else. Thanks and sorry. The Netgear GS108E was a budget winner. They have done a review of the SW-8 and a LPS from LHY: https://www.alpha-audio.nl/review/review-lhy-sw-8-switch-en-lhy-lps50va-lineair-power-supply/ (in Dutch)
 
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Dec 18, 2022 at 11:15 AM Post #253 of 3,880
Yes, it was the LHY SW-8 and nothing else. Thanks and sorry. The Netgear GS108E was a budget winner. They have done a review of the SW-8 and a LPS from LHY: https://www.alpha-audio.nl/review/review-lhy-sw-8-switch-en-lhy-lps50va-lineair-power-supply/ (in Dutch)
Thanks for posting this JaMo... gratifying to see Jaap's review was actually very positive, and pretty consistent with my observations re
significantly deeper soundstage, sense of acoustic space, decay extended. Phew. 😅
 
Dec 18, 2022 at 11:24 AM Post #254 of 3,880
Thanks for posting this JaMo... gratifying to see Jaap's review was actually very positive, and pretty consistent with my observations re
significantly deeper soundstage, sense of acoustic space, decay extended. Phew. 😅
Yes, in fact I don't listen too much to reviewers. I go with my own experiencies and what I like or when I have got a crazy idea to test a theory... Like with this SW-8 switch.
The only thing they had against the LHY SW-8 was its ability to "explode the view of the scene" if it was used with very revealing dac/amping rig. It is as usual the mix of gear and materials in the rig that makes the difference. I have absolutely no regrets getting the SW-8. The rig sounds just beautiful with it.
/Jan
 
Dec 18, 2022 at 11:29 AM Post #255 of 3,880
5. Unrelated to clocks, but with the Edgerouter X SFP and Edgerouter 4, I heard sound quality gains when I created a dedicated vlan for my audio gear.
Yes, VLAN cut broadcast type traffic, your VLAN for audio steaming can be isolated from other traffic, like IP TV or gaming. There is no need for separate wiring system. ER-X has very good throughput if main its hardware features are not disabled. VLAN is one of its hardware features, highly recommended. Switches must be VLAN aware. It is not a problem these days. Such inexpensive like TP-Link TL-SG108E or above mentioned Netgear GS108E have VLAN support and basic management for assigning ports or even traffic prioritisation.
 

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