Master Clock Talk

[camrector]

NUMBER 1 Principle of masterclock is power...enough said

EDIT: that prince is pretty lonely with one output huh?...clock, syncing timing...with who?

It’s pretty clear that you don’t know much about this.

With the Prince at least you have a measurement of what it is doing.
I still wouldn’t recommend it. -100db is not good
Any lower is worse and detrimental to sound quality.
The OCK1 measured a dismal -91db@1hz

 

[OCC7N]

It’s pretty clear that you don’t know much about this.

With the Prince at least you have a measurement of what it is doing.
I still wouldn’t recommend it. -100db is not good
Any lower is worse and detrimental to sound quality.
The OCK1 measured a dismal -91db@1hz

What does it matter if you are not able to detect it with your ears. If your ears wont tell you, you can look at all the numbers you want.

My expertise is this: This is what I know. I as in my senses telling me ....

Its pretty simple. I like the ock-2, if I did not, it would be for sale. Im not defending OCK-2 in general but all products and the principle of being objective without any disturbance in my subconscious from numbers/measurements that I know WILL interfere on my decisions, because "they" told me to.

 

[camrector]

It boils down to experience. My personal experience is...

The BG7TBL is better than any internal Crystek 575-based clock
The AfterDark King is better than the BG7TBL
The AfterDark Emperor Triple Crown is better than the King

This is based on sound quality, although AfterDark back it up with personalised measurements for each device. This is what you pay the money for.
Also, don't skimp on the PSU, it makes a big difference, too. I use a Zero Zone for each of my AfterDarks.

That Triple Crown is a great clock. -118db@1hz
That would be on my list of clocks recommended.

 

[camrector]

What does it matter if you are not able to detect it with your ears. If your ears wont tell you, you can look at all the numbers you want.

My expertise is this: This is what I know. I as in my senses telling me ....

Its pretty simple. I like the ock-2, if I did not, it would be for sale. Im not defending OCK-2 in general but all products and the principle of being objective without any disturbance in my subconscious from numbers/measurements that I know WILL interfere on my decisions, because "they" told me to.

Yes I always forget the subjective importance of clocks.

Look at our friend Martins experience.

BG7 = unknown measurement

After Dark King = -107db (better)

After Dark Triple Crown = -118db (best)

Hmmm I’m noticing a pattern. Are you?

Bottom line is phase-noise (at low offset frequencies) is the overriding most important parameter to clock performance.

NUMBER 1 Principle of masterclock is power...enough said

EDIT: that prince is pretty lonely with one output huh?...clock, syncing timing...with who?

AfterDark units are not sophisticated clock boards, and for a simple single-output sine wave clock that simplicity is an advantage in that their board is not mucking up the performance of the measured OCXO module they are putting on it.

 

[OCC7N]

Yes I always forget the subjective importance of clocks.

Look at our friend Martins experience.

BG7 = unknown measurement

After Dark King = -107db (better)

After Dark Triple Crown = -118db (best)

Hmmm I’m noticing a pattern. Are you?

Bottom line is phase-noise (at low offset frequencies) is the overriding most important parameter to clock performance.

AfterDark units are not sophisticated clock boards, and for a simple single-output sine wave clock that simplicity is an advantage in that their board is not mucking up the performance of the measured OCXO module they putting on it.

Whats your purpose with all this?

Ok. I am wrong.... Importantly where are you headed with all this, makes me just think you want people to stop buying the OCK-2?

OCK-2 is sus for taking down measurements and hiding behind hype?

This is my third and last time asking you. Find better alternative with the features like OCK-2. There are none right? - features. This OCK-2 should cost the twice because of this, if you ask me, just for the features alone.

With all this said, the OCK-2 is my first mclk, Im not saying that I can hear everything it is doing. It does not atleast make the experience worse, and sometimes I think wow! with the timing/rythm and separations. Im not constantly comparing with and without...

Even reading through all this thread as a new masterclock buyer I would still choose OCK-2, risk buying it if I were to look for a clock in the entry-level....if i needed more outputs than ( "1" ) or 2.

I simply don´t see any competition at this price point. NONE!

 

[JaMo]

That Triple Crown is a great clock. -118db@1hz
That would be on my list of clocks recommended.

-How do You know that..? -Have You measured the phase noise level with the cheap analyzer after Your 15 minutes education..?

I am sorry, I just had to..

You are saying things that may be taken for truths and it can confuse less knowing people here. A few corrrections.

1. Impedance is important to get the most out of the master clock. Very important for square wave transfer, less so with sine wave but still. (In my very revealing rig I can clearly hear a difference on sine wave impedance mismatch/correct match).

2. Lab-equipment for phase noise measurements are awful expensive.

3. To master and fully understand these lab-units and to be able do correct measurements You definitely need more than 15 minutes education.


Where I sit I own a Mutec REF10 SE120. It is said to have a phase noise level below -120dBc/1Hz. It may be true but I don't "know" this. I have got a paper with a nice graph and a low number for the total jitter on the outputs. I have decided to believe it and Itrust Mutec because I know they have the knowledge and the very expensive equipment for these measurements "inhouse".

So for me I have some kind of reference. The LHY OCK-2 is not far from the REF10 SE120 performance wise so for me the OCK-2 is of very high value for the money spent.
I also find it a bit annoyng that there aren't any measurements for the LHY OCK-2 clocks but I find it better this way than with a "generic graph" sent with them all.

So a paper in Your hand may make You feel good but are You 100% sure the measurement/graph is for just "Your" clock(?). The spread papers will most likely not ever be tested by customers. I will do it if I find a lab allowing me. I will then test the Mutec REF10 SE120, LHY OCK-2 and the OCK-1 just to get true numbers on them all.

/Jan

 

[Highfive99]

Any lower is worse and detrimental to sound quality.
The OCK1 measured a dismal -91db@1hz

If this were true why does my rig with a U18 and X26Pro along with many others who have bought the OCK-1 experience a nice improvement in SQ? I have not read 1 post anywhere where someone is complaining the OCK-1 is detrimental. This bashing of LHY didn't happen at all until someone measured 1 clock. Up until that point LHY was being praised for their clocks. I rely on my ears not a measurement spec to perceive if a device is detrimental or an improvement to my rig. IMHO LHY clocks are a great bang for the buck. Sure they're not as good as clocks that cost 10x what they do and they're not targeted at that market but they are great budget clocks and certainly are not detrimental.

 

[MartinWT]

So a paper in Your hand may make You feel good but are You 100% sure the measurement/graph is for just "Your" clock(?). The spread papers will most likely not ever be tested by customers. I will do it if I find a lab allowing me. I will then test the Mutec REF10 SE120, LHY OCK-2 and the OCK-1 just to get true numbers on them all.

You make a good point about trusting the vendors. In my case, having compared notes with others, it seems that the AfterDark units each come with slightly different graphs and noise measurements. I feel that I want to trust them, and they have given me great service over several purchases which makes me think good things about them.

However, it is ultimately about sound quality and, as previously stated, they help my system to sound superb and they definitely have an audible hierarchy.

 

[JaMo]

You make a good point about trusting the vendors. In my case, having compared notes with others, it seems that the AfterDark units each come with slightly different graphs and noise measurements. I feel that I want to trust them, and they have given me great service over several purchases which makes me think good things about them.

However, it is ultimately about sound quality and, as previously stated, they help my system to sound superb and they definitely have an audible hierarchy.

I have no doubt that AfterDark does individual measurements on the OCXO's. They have access to the testing gears. And selling on -120dBc/1Hz level they are expected to provide individual measurements. The same is valid for Cybershaft.

On entry level it is not a must but it should help selling but it should also rise the price to the customers. Until I have done my own initiated tests in a lab, I continue to live with the belief that my OCK-clocks meets the spec of -110dBc/1Hz for the OCK-1 and -115dBc/1Hz for the OCK-2. They both are doing a great job enhancing the sound.

I know You have the U18 and the X26 Pro and they responds very well on the masterclock, as You very well know. Enjoy.
/Jan

 

[joenetic]

When Pulsar OCXO clocks was still distributing, they sent a measured phase noise plot for each shipped OCXO.
I had upgraded the Crystek 575 100Mhz in my Auralic Vega with a Pulsar OCXO.
Unfortunately, the OCXO phase noise upwards towards 100Mhz is not really that much better than the best TCXOs and the marginal yet noticeable audible improvement [from memory- <5% soundstage expansion] reflected this in the listening. I later added the Gold Bybee purifiers in line to the +/- of the PS feed to the OCXO and this added another 10% soundstage improvement. I should have left the Crystek in place. And the Bybees are not cheap. Live and learn.
I inquired with Kingwa several years ago about replacing the Accusilicons to [allegedly available] Accusilicon OCXOs in the R8HE. At that time, Accusilicon marketed nicely spec'ed OCXOs for audio but they never returned my inquiries.
I brought it up to Kingwa to see if he could get them in China and Accusilicon never got back to him either. His local sales rep didn't know anything about them leading Kingwa to conclude that their OCXO product for audio frequencies didn't really exist. The Pulsar at least offered the same OCXO footprint to replace the two Accusilicons in the R8HE. Kingwa mentioned that I would need to size up one of the regulators to handle the added current for both frequencies. Unfortunately, Pulsar's inventory had sold out and they decided not to stay in business. I did try the Bybee Gold Purifiers in line to the power to the Accusilicon in the R8HE and got a 10% soundstage expansion.
I think the Accusilicon TCXOs and the Crystek 575s are really great - not even considering their low cost.

I started out with a Matrix DDI, thought I would be upgrading to the SingXer SU-6 and there really wasn't much of a difference in my system.
I also didn't feel that IIS through the DDIs offered any meaningful enhancement.
I then went to the SU-2 - still no meaningful improvement, and when I added the 10Mhz external reference, there was a nice 15% bump in soundstage expansion going IIS to the R8HE.
There was a much bigger improvement timing the SU-2 DDI than the R8HE. In terms of the R8HE, there is a noticeable improvement with external clock using IIS in terms of better soundstage focus but not huge. My personal data points - FWIW.

I am using SU2 now, remove the AC power, connect a nice 5V LPS is good enough to make it improve a lot, a lot is a lot of dynamic, 3D stage and detail, their AC power supply design should be something wrong. After I added 10Mhz clock, more detail can be heard.

 

[camrector]

I’m pretty amazed at the lack of understanding here.

I continue to live with the belief that my OCK-clocks meets the spec of -110dBc/1Hz for the OCK-1 and -115dBc/1Hz for the OCK-2.

1. There are no budget “entry level” OXCOs that measure -110db@1hz or -115db@1hz made by any manufacturer on earth.
These are highly specialized devices with many different specifications. Manufacturers simply don’t have these laying around hoping someone comes along and buys 1000 of them at a time.
Just like you don’t see a Ferrari dealership with 1000 white 812 GTS on their lot.
Your belief that an OCXO with these measurements could be had in a $350-$700 component, if true would honestly completely change the satellite/gps/electronics industry.

2. Lab-equipment for phase noise measurements are awful expensive.

2. A good Phase Noise Analyzer ranges in price from $6000-$150,000.
If you are in the business of making clocks whose most important metric of performance is phase noise, how could you be trusted to make these without one?!?

This bashing of LHY didn't happen at all until someone measured 1 clock.

The bashing of LHY started because people who actually know what they are talking about said “There is no way on earth you can get an OXCO at these measurements they list, and sell a device for $700. Let’s test them to see if they are lying to the consumer.”
They were and they removed the measurements.

 

[Presence]

I am using SU2 now, remove the AC power, connect a nice 5V LPS is good enough to make it improve a lot, a lot is a lot of dynamic, 3D stage and detail, their AC power supply design should be something wrong. After I added 10Mhz clock, more detail can be heard.

Off topic but I'm throwing in my own data point
My response is meant to be supplemental to your comments....

I tried replacing the 5V regulator in the SU-2 DDI with a Belleson [also tried the Sparkos] and heard no difference. Also tried several oversize transformers both RCore and toroid with Mundorf Electrolytics and discrete ON diodes for the bridge - no difference.
John Swenson of Uptone Audio/Sonore product design made comments about DC umbilical cables and advantages of Star Quad. He commented that digital circuits need power instantaneously where the power supply's ability to deliver these transients [my words from memory not his] is critical.
Then Antipodes Audio redesigned their LPS to be hybrid LPS/SMPS with a "white paper" on their website about the power supply needing to be "fast" [again my oversimplification]. I did this upgrade for my Antipodes server and player and experienced a 10-15% SQ improvement in terms of soundstage expansion and transient delivery.
So I took a shot and bought a Ferrum Hyposos, programed it for 5V and connected it straight to the SU-2 digital board. There was a clear 10% improvement.
Just another data point FWIW.

P.S. - I'm not implying that an OCXO needs a "fast" power supply and these references were specific to the DDI at hand.
And, as I don't have the measurement tools to make direct correlations between "fast" and "low-noise", my comments from tweaking experiences are meant to be interpreted purely as "data points"

 

[JaMo]

1. There are no budget “entry level” OXCOs that measure -110db@1hz or -115db@1hz made by any manufacturer on earth.

Not necessarily. An OCXO manufacturer usually try to have a small number of the highest spec OCXO on shelf or start producing based on orders. Like when building military airplanes with the same, identical parts, they still behave different in the air when flying and they have to be individually tested of skilled pilots who write descriptions of how to cancel a stall or a back spin. Same with OCXO's. Very few in a batch meet the spec and extremely few excceeds it. Most will fall below spec and from these unselected OCXO's, I am sure You can negotiate and buy number of these with a good discount. These unselected OCXO's are not very attractive on the market and the manufacturer will surely get some money for them instead of having them "laying around". I am pretty sure this is the case here.

2. A good Phase Noise Analyzer ranges in price from $6000-$150,000.

In my world a Tesla-car priced spectrum analyzer is awful expensive

/Jan

 

[Highfive99]

The bashing of LHY started because people who actually know what they are talking about said “There is no way on earth you can get an OXCO at these measurements they list, and sell a device for $700. Let’s test them to see if they are lying to the consumer.”
They were and they removed the measurements.

Doesn't answer the question of why a device with such a 'dismal' spec can actually improve SQ as owners of these devices experience that should be, as you put it, 'detrimental to sound quality'.

Apparently there is a way on earth a company can produce a $700 OCXO with 'dismal' specs that actually does improve SQ in real world use. I could give a crap about the specs if my ears hear an improvement worth the value of the money I spent. My ears don't lie to me and that's all that counts.

 

[joenetic]

Off topic but I'm throwing in my own data point
My response is meant to be supplemental to your comments....

I tried replacing the 5V regulator in the SU-2 DDI with a Belleson [also tried the Sparkos] and heard no difference. Also tried several oversize transformers both RCore and toroid with Mundorf Electrolytics and discrete ON diodes for the bridge - no difference.
John Swenson of Uptone Audio/Sonore product design made comments about DC umbilical cables and advantages of Star Quad. He commented that digital circuits need power instantaneously where the power supply's ability to deliver these transients [my words from memory not his] is critical.
Then Antipodes Audio redesigned their LPS to be hybrid LPS/SMPS with a "white paper" on their website about the power supply needing to be "fast" [again my oversimplification]. I did this upgrade for my Antipodes server and player and experienced a 10-15% SQ improvement in terms of soundstage expansion and transient delivery.
So I took a shot and bought a Ferrum Hyposos, programed it for 5V and connected it straight to the SU-2 digital board. There was a clear 10% improvement.
Just another data point FWIW.

P.S. - I'm not implying that an OCXO needs a "fast" power supply and these references were specific to the DDI at hand.
And, as I don't have the measurement tools to make direct correlations between "fast" and "low-noise", my comments from tweaking experiences are meant to be interpreted purely as "data points"

Thanks for your share! To me the 5V LPS has big improvement, Ferrum Hyposos supply is superb! It is out of my budget! I powered my clock with Li-ion batteries with LT3045 LDO, thought that the noise should be lower than general LPS.