[Ichos]

in my opinion, they have the most natural timbre of all. If the mids of the HD660S are similar to the HD58x, then I stand by my opinion of the HD650. But unfortunately I cannot comment on the HD660S for the moment. Between the three left (600/650/58x) I am of the opinion that the HD650 has the more natural timbre in the mids region. You may agree or not agree, that’s fine.

I will not argue with you and I don't disagree as we all hear differently and have different tastes.
If you find 650 mids the most natural then it's OK with you.
But unfortunately we must have a reference in order to discuss.
For example if we take as a reference the Harman curve then the 600 is the most natural headphone as Oratory has shown.

 

[VRacer-111]

Closed back HD58X?!?! This abomination must be destroyed!!!

I'm totally kidding...but I'm curious.....with all the great closed-back options out there, what made you want to mod a HD58X to a closed back design. And if you don't mind, what is your experience with closed backs and how do your modded HD58X's compare?

I also have stock HD58X as well which I use for monitoring the audio output of a mixer. Reason I wanted closed back HD58X was for more isolation and to see if I could change the sound and comfort some more to my liking - main use for the HD58X is gaming and movies, though I am using them more and more for music as well. Stock HD58X is a good headphone, but a bit thin and cool sounding compared to my preference and their comfort could use a little more improvement. I like modding things - not a single one of my headphones is stock (even my STAX) other than the second HD58X, as it has a specific purpose that it fits best stock and when modding I need a standard to compare against. There was a post on here a while back about a guy who makes custom wood cups for Sennheiser HD6 series... and that got me sold on the idea, always wanted some zebrawood cups. Here's my post earlier in this thread when I first got the cups in and modded them: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/mas...ew-measurements.867972/page-254#post-14966013

Been into Foster Biodyna headphones for a little over a decade, started with the Denon AH-D2000 and progressed to the Fostex TH-X00 series and also the Mk 3 planar series > converted to Argons (have Mk3 and T60RP Argons). The closed back HD58X compares favorably to my modded TH-X00 Purplehearts... subbass is about right there with it when EQ'd, maybe slightly better in extension and almost as good in impact. Sound is darker though, not quite as warm while the Purplehearts are brighter and little warmer. Mids are more forward on the HD58X and it has a more holographic sound presentation and better separation. Highs on the TH-X00 Purplehearts are more energetic and intense, but detail is very similar between them and the HD58X. Closed back HD58X is more of a laid back and darker TH-X00 Purpleheart with more forward mids, better positional information for gaming & movies, and better isolation and comfort. It's one of my favorite headphones that's not an E-stat or Porta Pro...and can honestly say I prefer it over both Argons - generally, planar magnetics are my least favorite driver type... much prefer good dynamic driver headphones. E-stats are top end for me though... love everything about them.

 

[limaaa]

What about Asgard 3 + 4490 DAC for HD58X? And maybe for some others headphones in the future?

 

[Electrolite]

Spare me your drama this has nothing to do with Sennheiser's given cans being good on their own. This is trying to uncover the truth about 58x driver roots. I posted my comparison 58x vs 599 and was immediately attacked for daring to say 58x has HD5 driver not HD6. There are believers in this thread yourself included who without any proof defend "58x = HD6" bs like it's something sacred and obvious. No it's not, and everyone is entitled to their opinion, especially when it's backed by testing and quoting other reviewers who claim otherwise than you and some other people in this thread. You say 58x belong to 600 series which for me and many others is bs and I don't attack you for this nonsense. I expect the same treatment.

You are the only person trying to say something without proof, that's why you are being attacked, you want to prove that the HD58X uses the HD5 based on opinions. I can also say that some reviewers think the 58X uses the 660S driver, see the issue? Opinions don't matter when you want to prove something.

Unless someone opens all these headphones and study all their parts all we can say is that the 58X uses a completely new driver as stated by Sennheiser themselves, now if you want to ignore the official statement by the people who designed this product and go with opinions there isn't much that can be done.

 

[Electrolite]

From Tyll -- who actually did measure (and listen to) headphones

His point is related to this discussion given that it puts some context around the importance of 'Ear Cup' acoustics vs drivers.
Please see his 300Hz square wave response of the HD 600 (top), HD 660 S (middle), and HD 700 (bottom) measurements below

Per Tyll..."The thing to me that's very interesting is that, assuming it is an HD 700 driver [from Jude's initial assumption], how little the driver performance itself effects the performance of the headphone as a whole. In the 300Hz square wave responses above you can clearly see the HD 660 S response (middle) is very much like the the HD 600 response (top) and is quite unlike the HD 700 response (bottom)...and that's a very good thing. I found the HD 700 a very bright headphone with an uncontrolled treble. Just goes to show you how much the overall acoustic of a headphone is largely due to the acoustics of the ear cup and has less to do with the driver itself."

Additionally, he compared the impedance curves for the HD660 and HD700 (graphic also below) and provides his thoughts regarding the 'new' driver design of the HD660.

SO...I look at these graphs and definitely see the measurement similarities that Tyll calls out -- hopefully everyone can sorta agree on this (probably not)



Makes me wonder...

- If it the HD600 and HD660 have substantially different drivers, why do they measure so closely?
- Could it be that Tyll's right about the impact of enclosure / 'ear cup' acoustics (whether the driver is an HD700 , HD6, or HD5 or something in between)?
- Why do the impedance numbers for the HD700 and the HD660 track almost identically if the drivers don't have some significant design commonality?
- Is it possible that the HD660 and the HD700 have the same/very similar drivers?
- Do the measurements of the HD58X parallel those of the HD660 enough that they also have some significant design commonality (i.e. did Senn tweak the HD660 driver to create another "New" one for the HD58X)?​

Certainly all/any of this is possible.

In general, I guess I'd 'trust' the manufacturer more regarding it being a 'New' driver than any subjective reviewers' opinions. That said, manufacturers can and do stretch the truth for marketing reasons (i.e. how do I sell this $500 set of cans [HD660] when it uses the same/similar driver as these $140 cans [HD58X])?

I tend to look at it more like Tyll (PeteMtl, etc.) do. Senn is continuously evolving their product line and the components within their products and that's a good thing.



TBH, I really don't care if they use tin foil for drivers if they sound good and are a good value (to me)!

Personally, I've had the HD58X's for over a month and would agree with the folks that say it's a tremendous set of cans for $140. I say this having owned the HD800, 700, 650 & 600 for several years.

I've also owned a set of renewed HD660s (by Sennheiser Outlet) and sent them back...weren't worth the $277 (muffled). Side note, to my way of thinking, manufacturer renewed cans should be totally up to snuff from a sound perspective -- unless Senn is just trying to recoup $$$ from returns/QC issues/etc. which I highly doubt they'd do.


Most importantly...hopefully we're enjoying the music along the way and not totally lost in agonizing over gear minutiae.

I also don't think drivers are as essential to determine the sound, sound is a physical wave, the ear cup format and other pshycial factors alter the sound a lot.

Sennheiser managed to easily tweak the prototype 58X and generate a completely new sound

 

[PeteMtl]

I also have stock HD58X as well which I use for monitoring the audio output of a mixer. Reason I wanted closed back HD58X was for more isolation and to see if I could change the sound and comfort some more to my liking - main use for the HD58X is gaming and movies, though I am using them more and more for music as well. Stock HD58X is a good headphone, but a bit thin and cool sounding compared to my preference and their comfort could use a little more improvement. I like modding things - not a single one of my headphones is stock (even my STAX) other than the second HD58X, as it has a specific purpose that it fits best stock and when modding I need a standard to compare against. There was a post on here a while back about a guy who makes custom wood cups for Sennheiser HD6 series... and that got me sold on the idea, always wanted some zebrawood cups. Here's my post earlier in this thread when I first got the cups in and modded them: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/mas...ew-measurements.867972/page-254#post-14966013

Been into Foster Biodyna headphones for a little over a decade, started with the Denon AH-D2000 and progressed to the Fostex TH-X00 series and also the Mk 3 planar series > converted to Argons (have Mk3 and T60RP Argons). The closed back HD58X compares favorably to my modded TH-X00 Purplehearts... subbass is about right there with it when EQ'd, maybe slightly better in extension and almost as good in impact. Sound is darker though, not quite as warm while the Purplehearts are brighter and little warmer. Mids are more forward on the HD58X and it has a more holographic sound presentation and better separation. Highs on the TH-X00 Purplehearts are more energetic and intense, but detail is very similar between them and the HD58X. Closed back HD58X is more of a laid back and darker TH-X00 Purpleheart with more forward mids, better positional information for gaming & movies, and better isolation and comfort. It's one of my favorite headphones that's not an E-stat or Porta Pro...and can honestly say I prefer it over both Argons - generally, planar magnetics are my least favorite driver type... much prefer good dynamic driver headphones. E-stats are top end for me though... love everything about them.

It would actually be a good idea for Sennheiser to design and market a closed back version of the 600 series, such as a HD59x or a HD670S. They’ve done it twice with the 500 series (HD598C I think it is, as well as another model exclusively for Amazon if I recall right, the HD569) and they’ve done it with the 800 series (HD820). Why not a closed back 600 series headphone? (And I’m not taking about the HD630VB, which may be nice but isn’t in my opinion a true 600 series headphone in the way of HD600/650/660S/6XX/58X). Maybe if Sennheiser is reading your post they may try it out as a prototype and maybe send it out to market. I would be very curious of such a headphone if it existed.

 

[WilliamLeonhart]

It would actually be a good idea for Sennheiser to design and market a closed back version of the 600 series, such as a HD59x or a HD670S. They’ve done it twice with the 500 series (HD598C I think it is, as well as another model exclusively for Amazon if I recall right, the HD569) and they’ve done it with the 800 series (HD820). Why not a closed back 600 series headphone? (And I’m not taking about the HD630VB, which may be nice but isn’t in my opinion a true 600 series headphone in the way of HD600/650/660S/6XX/58X). Maybe if Sennheiser is reading your post they may try it out as a prototype and maybe send it out to market. I would be very curious of such a headphone if it existed.

Even at its USED price the HD630 was a major disappointment. The closest thing that ever came close to being a closed back HD6 to me was the Master Dynamics MH40. Even then, it was not that close

 

[GoodBoy]

You are the only person trying to say something without proof, that's why you are being attacked, you want to prove that the HD58X uses the HD5 based on opinions. I can also say that some reviewers think the 58X uses the 660S driver, see the issue? Opinions don't matter when you want to prove something.

Unless someone opens all these headphones and study all their parts all we can say is that the 58X uses a completely new driver as stated by Sennheiser themselves, now if you want to ignore the official statement by the people who designed this product and go with opinions there isn't much that can be done.

First of all I'm not the only person. Many others have compared 58x to HD5 and HD6 saying it's more similar to HD5 than HD6, not in terms of tunning, but driver technical capabilities resolution, fidelity, scalability, grain and such. It's just too far away from anything HD6-series. Can you link any professional reviewer who claims otherwise? So far we've got Zeos, who's obviously wrong about 58x driver roots, but nevertheless think it's HD6-family. I gave you 3 youtube reviewers who say 58x is not even close to HD6. One have compared physical aspects of driver and claim it's derived straight from HD595. What have you got except your opinion to back up your claims?

Next, Sennheiser at no point confirmed it's "a completely new driver", that's your misinterpretation, not to mention they never released any official statement regarding this matter. Logically they wouldn't have created a completely new driver from ground up for just one seller exclusively (massdrop). It had to be derived from already existing HD lineup. It's just too similar to be otherwise. And yes, taking a driver from other headphone and adding minute change does not make it "completely new" even though technically it's a new part number for Sennheiser.

How difficult for him is to understand that this is a 6 series headphone judging only from the appearance and manufacturing?

That's very naive. According to this "logic" if they wanted to release another version of HD6 headphone they would have named it something like 68x, instead of 58x. So if I were you I could as well suggest it's 100% HD5 just because of the headphone product name... Fortunetly most folks know it doesn't necessarily work like that.

 

[Ichos]

This is not a new Sennheiser product in the 6 line.
This is a Drop / Sennheiser collaboration supposed something inspired from the HD580.
So that is why the name is 58x.

As for the reviewers you have mentioned most of them are enjoying their 10 minutes fame thanks to YouTube.

Solderdude who is considered very serious he is comparing HD58x with the 6 line if this is meaning something to you.

Anyway please enjoy your 599 (if you own them) and have fun.

 

[tolis626]

First of all I'm not the only person. Many others have compared 58x to HD5 and HD6 saying it's more similar to HD5 than HD6, not in terms of tunning, but driver technical capabilities resolution, fidelity, scalability, grain and such. It's just too far away from anything HD6-series. Can you provide any professional reviewer who claims otherwise? So far we've got Zeos, who's obviously wrong about 58x driver roots, but nevertheless think it's HD6-family. I gave you 3 youtube reviewers who say 58x is not even close to HD6. One have compared physical aspects of driver and claim it's derived straight from HD595. What have you got except your opinion to back up your claims?

Next, Sennheiser at no point confirmed it's "a completely new driver", that's your misinterpretation, not to mention they never released any official statement regarding this matter. Logically they wouldn't have created a completely new driver from ground up for just one seller exclusively (massdrop). It had to be drived from already existing HD lineup. It's just too similar to be otherwise. And yes, taking a driver from other headphone and adding minute change does not make it "completely new" even though technically it's a new part number for Sennheiser.


That's very naive. According to this "logic" if they wanted to release another version of HD6 headphone they would have named it something like 68x, instead of 58x. So if I were you I could as well suggest it's 100% HD5 just because of the headphone product name... Fortunetly most folks know it doesn't necessarily work like that.

So, according to your logic, the HD580 is part of the HD500 line. The fact that it's literally the HD600 has nothing to do with it, because its name starts with a 5. Good stuff.

I guess if Sennheiser/Massdrop had priced these at 250$, we would be having a completely different conversation, because then they would be a 250$ set of cans and it would've obviously been better.

 

[PeteMtl]

So, according to your logic, the HD580 is part of the HD500 line. The fact that it's literally the HD600 has nothing to do with it, because its name starts with a 5. Good stuff.

I guess if Sennheiser/Massdrop had priced these at 250$, we would be having a completely different conversation, because then they would be a 250$ set of cans and it would've obviously been better.

i may suggest, don’t spend your precious time disturbing the guy with facts. Let him enjoy his 500 series headphones and his beliefs

 

[GoodBoy]

So, according to your logic, the HD580 is part of the HD500 line. The fact that it's literally the HD600 has nothing to do with it, because its name starts with a 5. Good stuff.

That's not my logic. This is the Ichos "logic"...

I guess if Sennheiser/Massdrop had priced these at 250$, we would be having a completely different conversation, because then they would be a 250$ set of cans and it would've obviously been better.

If it had similar driver potential to the rest of the HD6 lineup then yes, but it doesn't. It's too far from HD6 and too close to HD5. Sennheiser and massdrop knew what they were doing putting HD5 retunned driver in a HD6 shell. Don't forget at the release date 599 was way more expensive at 250$ compared to 150$ 58x. Now they're both priced equally, and there's a reason for this.

This is not a new Sennheiser product in the 6 line.
This is a Drop / Sennheiser collaboration supposed something inspired from the HD580.
So that is why the name is 58x.
As for the reviewers you have mentioned most of them are enjoying their 10 minutes fame thanks to YouTube.
Solderdude who is considered very serious he is comparing HD58x with the 6 line if this is meaning something to you.
Anyway please enjoy your 599 (if you own them) and have fun.

HD580 precision has nothing in common sound-wise with 58x. Completley different headphones.

Solderdude is comparing the tunning, not debating about HD58x driver technicalities and roots. Please try to understand the difference. Similarly one can compare VE monks earbuds to 58x saying one has better bass extention than the other. It doesn't say anything about driver scalability, resolution grain, etc and it certainly does not mean both cans belong to same family of headphones.

 

[tolis626]

That's not my logic. This is the Ichos "logic"...


If it had similar driver potential to the rest of the HD6 lineup then yes, but it doesn't. It's too far from HD6 and too close to HD5. Sennheiser and massdrop knew what they were doing putting HD5 retunned driver in a HD6 shell. Don't forget at the release date 599 was way more expensive at 250$ compared to 150$ 58x. Now they're both priced equally, and there's a reason for this.


HD580 precision has nothing in common sound-wise to 58x. Completley different headphones.

Solderdude is comparing the tunning, not debating about HD58x driver technicalities and roots. Please try to understand the difference. Similarly one can compare VE monks earbuds to 58x saying one has better bass extention than the other. It doesn't say anything about driver scalability, resolution grain, etc and it definetly does not mean both cans belong to same family of headphones.

Dude, you're way too angry about this. It all boils down to "do you like listening to your music with it?", whatever "it" is. Or do you sit down to judge gear instead of listening to music? Regardless of what the 58x driver's origins are, it's still a great headphone and a bargain at 150$. There's absolutely better things on the market, but that doesn't diminish the value of the 58x, especially when you have to go MUCH higher in price to find something appreciably better (and yes, a 650 with a 1000$ amp is much higher in price).

 

[Ichos]

Oh God...

 

[GoodBoy]

Dude, you're way too angry about this. It all boils down to "do you like listening to your music with it?", whatever "it" is. Or do you sit down to judge gear instead of listening to music? Regardless of what the 58x driver's origins are, it's still a great headphone and a bargain at 150$. There's absolutely better things on the market, but that doesn't diminish the value of the 58x, especially when you have to go MUCH higher in price to find something appreciably better (and yes, a 650 with a 1000$ amp is much higher in price).

This has nothing to do with my post, and I do agree 58x is a decent option, but unlike most currently available budget heapdohnes HD58x is very polarizing in terms of value vs 6XX. If you share no interest finding Jubilee's driver roots then nobody force you to participate. Just enjoy them and be happy.

It would actually be a good idea for Sennheiser to design and market a closed back version of the 600 series, such as a HD59x or a HD670S. They’ve done it twice with the 500 series (HD598C I think it is, as well as another model exclusively for Amazon if I recall right, the HD569) and they’ve done it with the 800 series (HD820). Why not a closed back 600 series headphone? (And I’m not taking about the HD630VB, which may be nice but isn’t in my opinion a true 600 series headphone in the way of HD600/650/660S/6XX/58X). Maybe if Sennheiser is reading your post they may try it out as a prototype and maybe send it out to market. I would be very curious of such a headphone if it existed.

HD569 is not amazon exclusive, in fact it's available everywhere and it's the same headphone as 598CS only with slight cosmetic difference.

To me 630VB share more similarities with HD6 than 58x, but I do agree Sennheiser should release more variants especially closed-back. I'd love to hear revamped 630 with detachable cable and without gimmicky bass adjustment dial.