[BrotherKathos]

He brings some balance to the audio world by introducing some objectivity, but he is not really all that objective either really. He appears not to know much about psycho-acoustic research on threshold for audibility of the common distortions we measure of electronic audio gear. Generally speaking, thresholds are much higher than the levels he is typically comparing, but he does not go to great lengths to point out these differences are thought to be inaudible. Tests for distortion are not completely meaningless, it's interesting to know where the theoretical limit is currently. But in terms of sound quality they may be completely meaningless.

In addition, if he wanted to be truly objective he would mount complex time consuming aural tests with a variety of listeners including professional audiophiles, using ABX protocols. Pretty sure he's not interested in adding that layer of complexity to what he's already doing. Meanwhile, to his credit, he does give lip service to the problem from time to time saying something to the effect "these distortion differences are probably inaudible".

And then there's the big elephant in the room we can't measure and therefor no one is talking about, and that are the distortions that remain in the best systems that tell us we are listening to reproductions of music, not live music. We are getting closer, true, but still miles from true convergence. What are those unmeasured distortions? Mostly compression of "reality" that take various forms. "Waveform launch" is a biggie. Scale distortions. "Shape" (of aural phenomena) distortions. Dynamic and frequency range compressions. Dimensionality distortions.

These distortions can be as high as (let's say) 70%. Not 0.00001%. Some "objectivists" give objectivity a bad name

I agree with you in being skeptical of audible distortion based on measurements. I stumbled into that magni 3 and A30 comparison in an effort to explain why my magni 3 seemed so much brighter that my other equipment as I turned the volume up. Like I've said before earlier in the thread it actually sounds pretty good at very low volumes on efficient headphones, but once you start to raise the volume the little unit changes from a son of a god into the little village shrew. I thought it was interesting that the Amirm guy also had the exact same results I did, which looks more like that is just how the amp is designed to operate. His explanations on why that is the case and the relation to the rise in THD as volume increases I'm not so sure about, but both his and my units are both operating similarly.

That is what I put more stock in. We both hear the same thing coming out of the same model(magni 3) when using similar equipment. The magni 3 also gets bright as you raise the volume on all my other dac and headphone combos as well, so its not just one isolated setup producing those results either. So either both me and Amirm got really bad quality units, or their seems to be some design principle whether intentional or not my schiit that makes the magni 3 sound brighter than other amps in or around its price point. Lots of people may like this, and seem to. Personally I've always hated systems overemphasize treble in any way for headphones. Its not as big of a concern for floor standing speakers to me since they are not firing the shrill treble directly into your ear.

 

[treecloud]

...in an effort to explain why my magni 3 seemed so much brighter that my other equipment as I turned the volume up. Like I've said before earlier in the thread it actually sounds pretty good at very low volumes on efficient headphones, but once you start to raise the volume the little unit changes from a son of a god into the little village shrew.

Personally I've always hated systems overemphasize treble in any way for headphones. Its not as big of a concern for floor standing speakers to me since they are not firing the shrill treble directly into your ear.

Agree with you also about shrill highs into headphones, I also find it a serious disruption of the "suspension of disbelief" necessary for emotional immersion in music. However I had a different impression of sonics than you experienced. I replaced a massdrop ODAC and O2 integrated in stages, first with a Topping D50 dac into the O2, then getting a Magni 3 to use with the D50. I can't say I heard differences I'm sure would survive rigourous ABX comparisons, but I can say what I thought I heard, and those differences were relatively subtle.

Going from the ODAC to the D50 (still with the O2) I thought I heard a slight increase in resolution and smoothness. Adding the Magni 3 to the D50 I thought I heard a more relaxed presentation, with increased headroom, and again increased smoothness, and if anything a bit less brightness.

We all have varying subjective impressions of reproduced sound. The odd things is they frequently "disappear" in level matched ABX comparisons.

 

[BrotherKathos]

Agree with you also about shrill highs into headphones, I also find it a serious disruption of the "suspension of disbelief" necessary for emotional immersion in music. However I had a different impression of sonics than you experienced. I replaced a massdrop ODAC and O2 integrated in stages, first with a Topping D50 dac into the O2, then getting a Magni 3 to use with the D50. I can't say I heard differences I'm sure would survive rigourous ABX comparisons, but I can say what I thought I heard, and those differences were relatively subtle.

Going from the ODAC to the D50 (still with the O2) I thought I heard a slight increase in resolution and smoothness. Adding the Magni 3 to the D50 I thought I heard a more relaxed presentation, with increased headroom, and again increased smoothness, and if anything a bit less brightness.

We all have varying subjective impressions of reproduced sound. The odd things is they frequently "disappear" in level matched ABX comparisons.

It could very well be a variance in QC that makes some units smoother and others brighter as well. I've had others tell me the same thing about the O2 amp, where 2 units from different manufacturers like jds labs and mayflower had different sound profiles. One was smooth and the other thin and bright. The bright one was the mayflower from this person and the smooth the jds labs. Then I had another person tell me the O2 amp they heard from jds labs was bright. Mine is the massdrop one and its incredibly smooth, but I wonder if another one would be? The magni 3 might also have this same kind of swing as well, but it might be something that is subtle to the point that the people of schiit either don't really hear, or feel its not worth looking into and treat it as acceptable.

 

[treecloud]

It could very well be a variance in QC that makes some units smoother and others brighter as well. I've had others tell me the same thing about the O2 amp, where 2 units from different manufacturers like jds labs and mayflower had different sound profiles. One was smooth and the other thin and bright. The bright one was the mayflower from this person and the smooth the jds labs. Then I had another person tell me the O2 amp they heard from jds labs was bright. Mine is the massdrop one and its incredibly smooth, but I wonder if another one would be? The magni 3 might also have this same kind of swing as well, but it might be something that is subtle to the point that the people of schiit either don't really hear, or feel its not worth looking into and treat it as acceptable.

Well yes, any of that is possible, I don't think of it as all that likely however. One issue that may be more relevant here is Amirm seems to have developed a negative emotional attachment to Schiit products in particular, which is of course the condition (emotional attachment) that is most correlated to placebo effect in listening to electro-mechanical music reproduction.

And Amirm's condition seems to be contagious?

 

[BrotherKathos]

And Amirm's condition seems to be contagious?

If you are referring to me in this, it might make sense if I had not already gotten the magni 3 and found it lacking in quality before even reading Amirm's thread. If I'd read it beforehand like I posted earlier, I might not have bought the magi 3 in the first place or at least been quicker to return it. There is no placebo in this case. I'm extremely objective in my opinions and am never swayed by any of the hype trains that frequently occur in audio communities. I'll happily listen to a $50 component over a $5000 one if it sounds better to me. Sadly the magni 3 does not fit into this category. Is it worth $115 for the purpose of a head amp and preamp? Sure it its, but it hardly punches above its price point IMO. And my opinion is what matters most

 

[treecloud]

If you are referring to me in this, it might make sense if I had not already gotten the magni 3 and found it lacking in quality before even reading Amirm's thread. If I'd read it beforehand like I posted earlier, I might not have bought the magi 3 in the first place or at least been quicker to return it. There is no placebo in this case. I'm extremely objective in my opinions and am never swayed by any of the hype trains that frequently occur in audio communities. I'll happily listen to a $50 component over a $5000 one if it sounds better to me. Sadly the magni 3 does not fit into this category. Is it worth $115 for the purpose of a head amp and preamp? Sure it its, but it hardly punches above its price point IMO. And my opinion is what matters most

All I'm saying is if the shoe fits...

But clearly you do not think it does. I would like to suggest you consider a few of the things you said here however:
"I'm extremely objective in my opinions"
Opinions are, by definition, subjective.
"am never swayed by any of the hype trains that frequently occur"
Never is a long time. What human, emotional creatures that we are, is never swayed by collective emotions?
"And my opinion is what matters most"
To you of course, just as it is with all of us. The wise person has learned however he doesn't know it all, and he may be wrong.

I would add that IMHO collective opinion is frequently good for something ("the wisdom of the crowd" phenomena is real), and in the case of the Magni 3 you are going against an exceedingly positive collective opinion.

Absolutes are relative...know what I mean?

 

[BrotherKathos]

All I'm saying is if the shoe fits...

But clearly you do not think it does. I would like to suggest you consider a few of the things you said here however:
"I'm extremely objective in my opinions"
Opinions are, by definition, subjective.
"am never swayed by any of the hype trains that frequently occur"
Never is a long time. What human, emotional creatures that we are, is never swayed by collective emotions?
"And my opinion is what matters most"
To you of course, just as it is with all of us. The wise person has learned however he doesn't know it all, and he may be wrong.

I would add that IMHO collective opinion is frequently good for something ("the wisdom of the crowd" phenomena is real), and in the case of the Magni 3 you are going against an exceedingly positive collective opinion.

Absolutes are relative...know what I mean?

You can use semantics all you want. Its very possible to be objective in an opinion. This opinion directly related to an objective perception of the product I've personally experienced. I can also use never in relation to the past meaning I've not been swayed so far at least in the value to which i give other peoples opinions, which is quite low actually when my own taste is concerned. As far as my opinion goes and learning to listen to the 'wise men', I'll put more stock in my own. The whole world can tell me that something sounds great, but if it sounds like crap to me, well then it sounds like crap. You seem to be very dug into your own biases and don't seem to understand the distinction. Lots of people think Britney spears and Taylor swift are talented musicians, but to me their music is trash.

 

[BrotherKathos]

You can use semantics all you want. Its very possible to be objective in an opinion. This opinion directly related to an objective perception of the product I've personally experienced. I can also use never in relation to the past meaning I've not been swayed so far at least in the value to which i give other peoples opinions, which is quite low actually when my own taste is concerned. As far as my opinion goes and learning to listen to the 'wise men', I'll put more stock in my own. The whole world can tell me that something sounds great, but if it sounds like crap to me, well then it sounds like crap. You seem to be very dug into your own biases and don't seem to understand the distinction. Lots of people think Britney spears and Taylor swift are talented musicians, but to me their music is trash. Billions of people have eaten Mcdonald's but does that make the food any better?

 

[treecloud]

You can use semantics all you want. Its very possible to be objective in an opinion....You seem to be very dug into your own biases and don't seem to understand the distinction.

There is also "informed opinion", thought to be possessed by professionals and experts. You appear to believe you are in possession of informed opinion, and I'm completely comfortable with that. Enjoy your tunes my brother.

 

[BrotherKathos]

There is also "informed opinion", thought to be possessed by professionals and experts. You appear to believe you are in possession of informed opinion, and I'm completely comfortable with that. Enjoy your tunes my brother.

Thanks Treecloud. Yeah the so called 'informed opinion' can only hope to point people in the right direction. Sadly it has no effect on personal experience when its own significance is devalued by objectivity.

 

[BrotherKathos]

Does anyone else get the scratchy static from the magni 3 when you change the the volume?

 

[treecloud]

Does anyone else get the scratchy static from the magni 3 when you change the the volume?

I was getting that with the Massdrop ODAC O2 combo, but interestingly it went away when I dropped the D50 in circuit. And Magni 3 is also quiet with D50. There were a lot of posts about "dusty pots" previously, but what I was hearing did not sound like dusty pot, was more subtle than that, more like DC offset maybe, some potential in the line that shouldn't be there, power supply issue perhaps.

 

[riffrafff]

Does anyone else get the scratchy static from the magni 3 when you change the the volume?

I did. Sent it back, they replaced the pot. All good now.

 

[BrotherKathos]

I did. Sent it back, they replaced the pot. All good now.

Ok I'm getting more and more convinced I just got a bad unit. The sound is different than all these other people claim, and its apparently got a bad pot as well.

 

[DavidA]

Ok I'm getting more and more convinced I just got a bad unit. The sound is different than all these other people claim, and its apparently got a bad pot as well.

Hope that a new unit works out and it was just the volume pot that was the issue since my friend who has a Magni3 had issues with the volume pot (channel imbalance) and got a new one but it did not get harsh or brighter when played at higher levels.