[Uncle Erik]

Azure, it is always the unmet expectation that's the biggest disappointment. I know how you feel, and I think we've all been through this with something or other. Maybe give it a little more time. I read what you think about equipment and I disagree. You do get used to certain sound signatures over time. That's my experience, and I've seen it happen to many others. Some gear sounds terrific right away, other gear takes time. I almost impulsively sold the AKG K-501, but am sure glad I gave it more time. It's one of my favorites now.

Also, you list your location as California. Are you near Los Angeles? There's a meet coming up at the end of next month. If you're nearby, you should come and bring your gear. You'd have a chance to A/B it with other rigs. Maybe you'll hear something you didn't realize in what you have. And maybe you'll hear what's right for you in someone else's setup. You might find someone to swap equipment with, too.

As for those "burn marks," they sure look like fingerprint marks to me. If Windex doesn't take them off, try rubbing it with a little Brasso. The case should clean up just fine.

 

[Borat]

You should go to a meet. That is my advice to you. Now stop reading everyone else's advice.

Seriously though, at a meet you'll be able to try your headphones connected to several amps and sources that you read about on this forum. That is the only way you can truly hear for yourself what all the fuss is about. At least then you can be sure before you decide to walk away.

It doesn't even have to be a big meet. There are some heavy hitters in your part of town (Norcal, right?). Ask one of them politely if they are down for a mini-meet. It would only take one afternoon. Heck, you spend a lot of time reading on this forum, right? And where has that gotten you? Only trust your own ears. Get out of your house and meet some new people who share a common interest. It's the summer!

 

[K2Grey]

I would advise going to a meet to try things out for yourself.

To be honest I'm not sure what the big fuss is. As I see it:

1) person A has SA5000
2) person likes SA5000 very much
3) person buys expensive headphone amp expecting significant perceived boost in sound quality over previous bad amp
4) perceived boost does not materialize

Now, it's obviously possible to chase the audiophile dream all over the price, and by buying an expensive source, but what happens if the desired benefits don't materialize there? Is he also supposed to buy expensive cables and ever more gear in order to attempt to gain the same experiences other members post about as if they are religious experiences (which is of course nonsensical since even live music with nonamplified stuff and great acoustics isn't like that?)

Edit: Also, please don't get patronizing with the insults. He doesn't perceive differences between two amps, ok, that doesn't mean he should go and buy a pair of KSC75s. He obviously likes the SA5000 much more than the KSC75. You need not assume that for a person to not rave about how things become WORLDS BETTER after an amp uprade necessarily means they are deaf.

 

[digitalmind]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure I created a thread about which genre of music I preferred and it seemed that the majority recognized that I listened to a lot of electronica. The majority recommended that I check out the SA5k's.

That 'majority' consisted of 2 people. I don't mean to debunk the quality of their recommendation, but that's hardly a large group. I listen to electroclash, house, trance, techno, and am a Grado user. I like the slam and fun of the headphones, together with the fairly weighty bass. I recently sold my SR-325i to upgrade to a RS-1.

Amps don't give night and day differences, they'll slightly improve the sound to tweak the headphone you like. The results you are seeing are pretty consistent with my (little so far, I should add) experience with amps.

 

[tomb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teerawit Conclusion: Headphone amps aren't frequency equalizers. Next?

I think Teerawit's comment comes closest to the truth. A great amplifier is colorless - under almost any condition thrown at it. A headphone amp tries to specifically "uncolor" the source for headphones. If you didn't notice any shortcomings in your present system (obvious clipping, distortion, or compression), there's no reason to think the M3 would sound different.

Your analogy with a car stereo is a good one, though, Azure. I am one of those who enjoys a good subwoofer with lots of power in a car.

That does not seem to be the predominant mode of thinking with the headphone community on the forum. Although, there are a few notable exceptions. The M3 is actually one of those, with its bass boost ability (that may not be on your version). Even so, the bass boost is "tasteful" with a minimum of effect, lest it be relegated to boom box reputation.

Rubbish. Even with Senns, I feed in the bass on a quality amp just to see if I can get the cans bouncing off my head.

So, I'm wondering if you've ever tried to turn up the bass on your present stereo. Most likely, the result was an increase in mud. You should try the same thing with your M3. You will probably start to notice a big difference.

Drive a Ferrari around the block at 30mph, and there won't be any difference from a Chevrolet. In fact, it will probably be a lot less comfortable. Take it out on the highway, though, and try some insane speeds, cornering, etc. - and the difference becomes immediately obvious.

Just a suggestion ...

P.S. Then there's the opportunity for a whole lot of fun in opamp rolling. That's exactly where you can tailor the amp to match your specific set of phones and your own personal listening preferences. The differences are subtle, and are much different than simple equalization. So, I would be patient and work with it. You have made a huge first jump that take many people years of build up. It's not unexpected to be a little dissatisfied. Give it time.

 

[hentai]

hmm .. azure i can understand your feelings some how. You expect a wow difference in SQ but in the end its just some refinement in resolution and detail which may or may not be enjoyable. I suggest you attend the meets and judge yourself. ( Damn it i live in asia )

 

[n_maher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yikes I do recommend the SA5000’s. With some caveats, they are ruthlessly revealing. This means that with the wrong equipment it can be painful, but with the right equipment they can be glorious.

I think you'd agree with me that in this case a decades-old Pioneer CD changer does not equal the right equipment

. I wish that more recommendations around here came with some balance. It doesn't make much sense to steer someone towards $300 to $500 headphones if there amp or source isn't up to the challenge.

Quote:

They’re still not for everyone, but then again what is?

Amen to that!

 

[philodox]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure 1. Uh...sonically, they're perfect.

I won't say much here except that I think we have very different preferences. I could not find much to like about the SA5000 when I heard them. What other headphones have you heard at this point? Just the A500, DT770 and SA5000? Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure 2. Million-dollar question right there. I've struggled to find the best way to state the kind of music I like, but I've always failed. Whenever people try to introduce me to new music, they always struggle as I like songs A and C, but don't like song B; yet, there's no genre/sonic relation between songs A and C, and song A is much more closer sounding to song B. I've asked many people about what I'd classify my musical tastes as, and I've concluding that it'd be: Electronica, trance, techno, and J-Pop.

Ok, so more fast paced beats then? Uptempo type sound? In that case I can see why you like the SA5000... speed. Still, there are other headphones which offer this and are not so cold and uninvolving.

You might want to try out a tube amp before going that way. Not sure how they would handle primarily electronic music. Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure I should mention that I didn't intentionally ignore your advice on any personal basis or anything along those lines. Whenever I create some recommendation threads, I follow advice based on the majority (And I create multiple threads over long periods of time, and see all the different majority options; I then decide on the majority of the majority options). If I didn't follow your advice, it was probably because you weren't in the majority (I know it isn't your fault, but I'm a careful shopper).

Oh, I know... I'm not mad that you didn't follow my advice.

 

[replytoken]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure As of this moment, no (Due to the disappointment of amping them with a proper amp). They sound a bit more exciting and energetic than the SA1k's, but I also kept them for their supposedly huge potential with a nice rig. And, needless to say, hearing them through an M3 has disappointed me in what kind of sound can be achieved through them (Not because it sounds bad, but just that it's a minimal improvement over my previous amp).

Recognizing huge potential usually, but not always, requires hefty amounts of synergy and money. I can understand the disappointment. Amps can do that in many upgrades, but on occasion they can be the piece that pulls everything together. Clearly this is not the case.

I am a big believer in learning to better understand things through time and experience. Yes, your first impression is a strong one, as is for most people. But, you own the equipment, so why not spend some time with it. It costs you nothing, as you have already taken the depreciation hit. When the Sony arrives, you will have a number of pieces of equipment for "experiments", all at no additional cost. And you are free to exit this hobby at any time during your experiments. Selling and downgrading prematurely, however, does not give you any value. You lose your money, and you gain no experience. Do not let your pride get the better of you.

Regarding your amp, if you think it might need servicing, contact the manufacturer soon. If it is in need of service, this may explain some of its lack of desired performance. If not, at least you know that it is performing as advertised.

This hobby is not much different than most hobbies. The deeper we become involved, the greater the chances that we train ourselves to better understand the subtle differences that we are offered. I am sure that you knowledge of gaming is much more refined than mine, and that you have a greater awareness for small details in the games than me. I, on the other hand, like eating dark chocolate, and could go on forever about the differences between brands. You might not care for chocolate, as I do not care for gaming, and that's OK. Its a big world, and their are many hobbies that should bring us pleasure.

Forget the amp for a bit and try to focus on the positive things that your expected Sony CDP offers. I have this CDP, and find it to be a wonderful source, especially for the money. Buy or borrow a good SACD and see what you think. This will give you one more variable in your experiments. Hopefully one that you will enjoy.

 

[Filburt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure And now, all of a sudden I'm being told that I got the wrong headphones and that you guys would never recommend SA5k's for electronica. There's so much hypocrisy that I don't even know who to trust anymore. So, now the SA5k's are bad for electronica/trance? What's next, Senns are the kind of rock?

Huh? I don't recall recommending the SA5000 to you. What's mostly wrong here is that you're claiming the majority opinion is in favour of the the SA5000 for this genre. As I said, in my observation, that headphone isn't even popular enough to get that sort of consensus that you are insisting existed. I don't think they're bad for electronica, but for me at least the K701 is a pretty significant step above when I listen to the electronica I have. I also like some Grados for this genre. I find the SA5000 can be fun if you can get the rest of your rig together for it, but I also find that they aren't very involving on most setups I've heard them on. Even on setups they do seem to work for me on, they still aren't the most enjoyable in this price range, to me at least, even on electronica. Thus, it's a headphone I'm generally very hesitant about recommending it to someone given both its relatively low popularity as well as what I've found in my experience with it. As time goes on, I simply get the impression more and more that this may not have been the *best* headphone for you, though maybe it's still be a pretty good one.

Anyhow, give the amp some time and maybe you'll find more to like about it as time goes on.

 

[Azure]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Filburt Huh? I don't recall recommending the SA5000 to you. What's mostly wrong here is that you're claiming the majority opinion is in favour of the the SA5000 for this genre. As I said, in my observation, that headphone isn't even popular enough to get that sort of consensus that you are insisting existed. I don't think they're bad for electronica, but for me at least the K701 is a pretty significant step above when I listen to the electronica I have. I also like some Grados for this genre. I find the SA5000 can be fun if you can get the rest of your rig together for it, but I also find that they aren't very involving on most setups I've heard them on. Even on setups they do seem to work for me on, they still aren't the most enjoyable in this price range, to me at least, even on electronica. Thus, it's a headphone I'm generally very hesitant about recommending it to someone given both its relatively low popularity as well as what I've found in my experience with it. As time goes on, I simply get the impression more and more that this may not have been the *best* headphone for you, though maybe it's still be a pretty good one. Anyhow, give the amp some time and maybe you'll find more to like about it as time goes on.

Ugh, keep in mind that by majority I'm only talking about those that replied to my thread and made a suggestion. Of course, if you asked the majority on Head-Fi, the SA5k's wouldn't get that many votes. But you have to keep in mind that I was only able to go by those that actually replied in my threads and provided a suggestion. The majority pointed to the SA5k's, and all the reviews also seemed to indicate that they'd be perfect for electronica.

I don't know why everybody is still fixating on the SA5k's and trying instill this idea that they aren't right for me or that I don't like that.

 

[Azure]

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyfrenchman27 Wow, what a worthless thread from an inexperienced member bashing an excellent and reasonably priced amp. Perhaps this thread should be re-titled to, "M3 - Second Biggest Disappointment Ever: it doesn't distort my music and it makes my AV710 sound like my AV710!" Next time, shell out some money for a reasonably priced source, such as the Zhaolu, before you buy an amp that costs ten times more than your source and expect a miracle. -Matt

Yup, I knew it, there actually aren't any elitest in the audiophile world! Yeesh, I guess the true audiophiles here don't give a crap about how much experience someone else has and they expect equal knowledge and experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by digitalmind That 'majority' consisted of 2 people. I don't mean to debunk the quality of their recommendation, but that's hardly a large group. I listen to electroclash, house, trance, techno, and am a Grado user. I like the slam and fun of the headphones, together with the fairly weighty bass. I recently sold my SR-325i to upgrade to a RS-1.

That was just in that one thread. I created more threads before I eventually got the SA1k's and literally all signs pointed to the SA5k's being the headphones for electronica. Nearly every thread I read about the SA5k's mentioned something about how they'd excell with electronica or trance or something. I'm more surprised at everybody saying I jumped the gun on the wrong headphones than my experience with the M3.

I'm usually 3+ hours away from most meets in California, so I usually don't bother. I don't know, but I'm not SO obsessed with headphones and head-fi stuff and what not to go all the way down to L.A. (5-6 hours) to attend a headphone meeting. I don't know, but that's just me

So, to confirm, the CE595 will be an adequate source to determine whether the M3 was a real improve/upgrade or not? I don't feel like being flamed again on how I'm not using a proper source if I don't like the sound

Headphones I've tried:
SR80
A500
DT770
SA1k
SA5k

 

[Filburt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure Ugh, keep in mind that by majority I'm only talking about those that replied to my thread and made a suggestion. Of course, if you asked the majority on Head-Fi, the SA5k's wouldn't get that many votes. But you have to keep in mind that I was only able to go by those that actually replied in my threads and provided a suggestion. The majority pointed to the SA5k's, and all the reviews also seemed to indicate that they'd be perfect for electronica. I don't know why everybody is still fixating on the SA5k's and trying instill this idea that they aren't right for me or that I don't like that.

Well, I think maybe it would have been prudent to be more mindful of comments _outside_ of your threads, then. As I just set pretty much explicitly, I _don't_ consider the SA5000 *the* headphone for electronica.

I'm not saying you don't like the SA5000 or that they can't work for you. What I'm saying is that your comments lead me to believe that they aren't an ideal match for you of headphones in this price range. These are two distinctly different sorts of claims. None of the headphones you listed as hearing are ones that I'd have recommended to you personally.

As for your incoming source, I don't know if it'll help at all. As I said, it could even conceivably be worse, depending on whether you end up liking that sort of sound versus your current source. It's not better in some sort of absolute sense, though is probably superior on a technical level.

 

[db597]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure So, to confirm, the CE595 will be an adequate source to determine whether the M3 was a real improve/upgrade or not? I don't feel like being flamed again on how I'm not using a proper source if I don't like the sound

Since you ask, the CE595 still comes across as a entry level CD player to me. Multi-disc systems usually do not qualify as audiophile grade CD players because of compromises that need to be made in the transport mechanism. For the kind of money you've spent in the M^3 and headphones, it would be more "balanced" to pair it with something like a Marantz SA7001 KI Signature.

 

[Azure]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Filburt Well, I think maybe it would have been prudent to be more mindful of comments _outside_ of your threads, then. As I just set pretty much explicitly, I _don't_ consider the SA5000 *the* headphone for electronica. I'm not saying you don't like the SA5000 or that they can't work for you. What I'm saying is that your comments lead me to believe that they aren't an ideal match for you of headphones in this price range. These are two distinctly different sorts of claims. None of the headphones you listed as hearing are ones that I'd have recommended to you personally. As for your incoming source, I don't know if it'll help at all. As I said, it could even conceivably be worse, depending on whether you end up liking that sort of sound versus your current source. It's not better in some sort of absolute sense, though is probably superior on a technical level.

As for looking outside of my replies, and I looked at tons of reviews/impressions of the SA5k's and they all pointed towards them excelling with electronica.

Exactly which comments are you talking about? I think you're really misinterpreting my comments as I've been wholly satisfied with the SA1k/SA5k's since I got them.