M2Tech HiFace 2?

[Andrew_WOT]

Has anyone experimented with ASIO output on HiFace2?
To me it sounds the cleanest and with the most dynamics, even though Peter (foobar2000 output plugins author) claims that there is no reason to use it under Windows Vista and beyond, what piqued my interest is this.
 
Audio Output Methods by JRiver
Quote:

Choosing Audio Quality Output Mode

Choose the best output for your hardware in this order:
1) If your hardware has a native, well-behaved, ASIO driver, use ASIO.
2) Otherwise, on Windows Vista, Windows 7, or newer, use WASAPI exclusive.
3) Otherwise, use Kernel Streaming if it works.
4) If none of the above are possible, use DirectSound or WaveOut. Neither of these provide hardware direct output, so choose based on performance.
If you have problems, start with DirectSound and get MC working. Once you have audio working and are comfortable using MC, then experiment with other audio output choices.

ASIO

ASIO is a sound card communication system created by Steinberg.
If your soundcard has a native ASIO driver, this is the most direct (and normally best) way to communicate with it.
Please note that ASIO4All is basically Kernel Streaming with an ASIO wrapper. There's no good reason to use ASIO + ASIO4All vs just using Kernel Streaming directly in Media Center.
For more information, see ASIO.

 
And I swear it sounds quite better than either KS or WASAPI in foobar2000, the feed goes into Chord DAC64.

 

[Andrew_WOT]

Quote:

One that's not a MSDN article and its in relation to Vista.  Two at least get to the bottom before coming to conclusions...
 
More User Mode, Less Kernel Mode
In this model, nearly all blocks in the picture above run in user space. The only portion of this architecture that runs in kernel mode is represented by the single block called "Audio Driver", and it contains only a minimal amount of Microsoft code. It contains only the Microsoft "Port Class" Driver, the Vendor "Miniport" driver and Vendor Hardware Abstraction Layer portions depicted in the XP driver architecture diagram. Note that the Windows "Kernel Mixer" (or kMixer) is completely gone.
 

 
Missed that reply, I kind of suspected that there is a confusion between Kernel Mixer and Kernel Streaming just was hesitant to point out the obvious.
BTW, JRiver dudes recommend ASIO, see my previous reply. From new Windows Audio Stack architecture layout that makes sense as ASIO goes straight to audio driver
 

 

[Solude]

Again the point of KS in XP is to bypass KMixer.  Kmixer is gone in Windows7, ie KS has nothing to bypass which as you can see in the diagram is why its MIA.  Windows 7 talks WASAPI and ASIO.  
 
And Yes JRiver recommends ASIO where possible.  Problem is there aren't many USB>SPDIF adapters that do ASIO.  So like JRiver recommends after that its WASAPI, Event Style if possible.
 
I think you think Kernel Streaming actually does what its name implies... stream directly to the audio kernel.  That's not the case, all it ever did was bypass the kmixer section of the audio kernel in XP.
 
Sorry it's a pet peeve of mine.  That and ASIO4All.  Give you a hint, ASIO4All is not a free lunch to ASIO performance, just support.

 

[Andrew_WOT]

Quote:

 Technically I have the PWD2 and not the HiFace2 but both are XMOS and use the same driver so... ya.

 
Quote:

Again the point of KS in XP is to bypass KMixer.  Kmixer is gone in Windows7, ie KS has nothing to bypass which as you can see in the diagram is why its MIA.  Windows 7 talks WASAPI and ASIO.  
 
And Yes JRiver recommends ASIO where possible.  Problem is there aren't many USB>SPDIF adapters that do ASIO.  So like JRiver recommends after that its WASAPI, Event Style if possible.
 
I think you think Kernel Streaming actually does what its name implies... stream directly to the audio kernel.  That's not the case, all it ever did was bypass the kmixer section of the audio kernel in XP.
 
Sorry it's a pet peeve of mine.  That and ASIO4All.  Give you a hint, ASIO4All is not a free lunch to ASIO performance, just support.

But if your PWD2 use the same Thesycon driver as HiFace Two which comes with native ASIO support, why would you choose WASAPI over it.
 
http://www.usbdacs.com/hs24192/hs24192.html
 
Quote:

The Thesycon system includes a Control Panel for debugging and setting options. Nothing really needs to be addressed for that and you will not need it. The Thesycon suite also includes an ASIO driver so do not run your new device through any of the after market ASIO drivers like ASIO4ALL as it will cause a conflict in which nothing will work. There is also WASAPI and Kernel Mode inclusion in the driver installation as well as the standard Direct Sound interface.

 
It's also covered here http://www.head-fi.org/t/562732/stello-u3-async-usb-to-coax-aes-ebu-transport-impressions-updated

 

[Solude]

Mostly because my previous DACs didn't support ASIO and I didn't even check to see if it was there for XMOS.  It is, and I've switched over now /facepalm  But my Burson, W4S, Stello, AP2 didn't support ASIO.
 
That said, I'd put money down that WASAPI Event Style is likely more reliable for streaming packet bursts over USB.  And I say this because USB isn't really streaming in the SPDIF sense of the word, it sends a burst when scheduled.  Event style means the XMOS is dictating when the burst comes instead of waiting for the USB controller to throw and having to react.
 
That's a whole other discussion.

 

[qbroid]

I recently found this on a Chinese online shopping site
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=18644516688
I think this will be a good external power supply IDEA for hiface, too bad they only have type B for those external usb interface/DACs which use a cord to connect to PC. Also, they specify it as "power adapter for usb soundcard" and "power supply from PC isolated".
 
The only similar thing I can find is "MikroTik 5VUSB 5V Power Injector for USB". However, I cannot find information of whether the power from PC is isolated or not. Besides, it is not specified as an audio accessory, so I guess it may not fit the idea of using a complete isolated power for hiface.
 
 
Any way, I am trying to find a cheap alternative for the aqvox usb power supply. Does any one know anything else besides the two things I mentioned above? Specifically, something like the first thing I mentioned but with a type A usb.
 
Thanks

 

[Anda]

Quote:

 
The only similar thing I can find is "MikroTik 5VUSB 5V Power Injector for USB". However, I cannot find information of whether the power from PC is isolated or not. Besides, it is not specified as an audio accessory, so I guess it may not fit the idea of using a complete isolated power for hiface.

 
In a couple of weeks I'll get the Mikrotik from a fellow head-fier. I'll check if power is isolated and get back to you.
I guess the best (and pretty expensive) options are the Aqvox and Vaunix hub.

 

[Andrew_WOT]

Quote:

I recently found this on a Chinese online shopping site
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=18644516688
I think this will be a good external power supply IDEA for hiface, too bad they only have type B for those external usb interface/DACs which use a cord to connect to PC. Also, they specify it as "power adapter for usb soundcard" and "power supply from PC isolated".
 
The only similar thing I can find is "MikroTik 5VUSB 5V Power Injector for USB". However, I cannot find information of whether the power from PC is isolated or not. Besides, it is not specified as an audio accessory, so I guess it may not fit the idea of using a complete isolated power for hiface.
 
 
Any way, I am trying to find a cheap alternative for the aqvox usb power supply. Does any one know anything else besides the two things I mentioned above? Specifically, something like the first thing I mentioned but with a type A usb.
 
Thanks

MikroTik should work, I believe JKenny was recommending it as alternative to Aqvox, the problem is finding the right PSU that doesn't make things worse than they are.

 

[Roller]

Quote:

Mostly because my previous DACs didn't support ASIO and I didn't even check to see if it was there for XMOS.  It is, and I've switched over now /facepalm  But my Burson, W4S, Stello, AP2 didn't support ASIO.
 
That said, I'd put money down that WASAPI Event Style is likely more reliable for streaming packet bursts over USB.  And I say this because USB isn't really streaming in the SPDIF sense of the word, it sends a burst when scheduled.  Event style means the XMOS is dictating when the burst comes instead of waiting for the USB controller to throw and having to react.
 
That's a whole other discussion.

 
Exactly.
 
Also, ASIO's real purpose is to provide low latency audio for recording usage, not for playback, despite obviously working as such.

 

[Andrew_WOT]

Quote:

 
Exactly.
 
Also, ASIO's real purpose is to provide low latency audio for recording usage, not for playback, despite obviously working as such.

Not sure if you have HiFace 2, but it comes with native ASIO drivers and at least to my ears sounds better through ASIO than both WASAPI and KS.

 

[Roller]

Quote:

Not sure if you have HiFace 2, but it comes with native ASIO drivers and at least to my ears sounds better through ASIO than both WASAPI and KS.

 
Ah, so you no longer defend KS with your life? Good.
 
In any case, ASIO is an output method meant for recording purposes, as I mentioned previously. But if it sounds best to your specific ears, then great as that's what matters most.

 

[Chodi]

Funny, I have the Hiface 2 and I use it with Foobar in WASAPI event output. I have used it for a long time with KS mode and switched to WASAPI event because it sounds better to my ears. I guess everyone hears this stuff differently.

 

[Andrew_WOT]

Quote:

 
Ah, so you no longer defend KS with your life? Good.
 
In any case, ASIO is an output method meant for recording purposes, as I mentioned previously. But if it sounds best to your specific ears, then great as that's what matters most.

You didn't answer my question, do you own HiFace 2 or you just post here to share your personal opinions or stuff you read somewhere on things in general, and insult the people along the way. That surely doesn't add much value to this "HiFace Two" thread.
What's your setup, what DAC, amp, phones did you use for evaluation? Have you noticed any differences between different output methods, what buffer settings and latency you use, upsampling method if any, etc?
 
WASAPI is just another complex layer of indirection on the top of audio driver, not the shortest and cleanest path comparing to KS and ASIO, it's pretty obvious from the earlier posted diagram which is not that hard to read even if you are not in a software architecture and design. It might sound as straight through path on paper but in reality just another Windows service that just gets in a way. It could be an answer for devices with not very stable or well behaving drivers or those that do not natively support ASIO, for these it's certainly better than ASIO4ALL kludge, for HiFace Two, at least based on my own experience, I am not so sure, as both KS and ASIO sounded cleaner to my ears than WASAPI, with ASIO 64bit drivers being the most stable and perceivably best dynamics option so far.

 

[Roller]

Quote:

WASAPI is just another complex layer of indirection on the top of audio driver, not the shortest and cleanest path comparing to KS and ASIO, it's pretty obvious from the earlier posted diagram which is not that hard to read even if you are not in a software architecture and design. It might sound as straight through path on paper but in reality just another Windows service that just gets in a way. It could be an answer for devices with not very stable or well behaving drivers or those that do not natively support ASIO, for these it's certainly better than ASIO4ALL kludge, for HiFace Two, at least based on my own experience, I am not so sure, as both KS and ASIO sounded cleaner to my ears than WASAPI, with ASIO 64bit drivers being the most stable and perceivably best dynamics option so far.

 
I advise you to read further on such output methods instead of going by "what the manufacturer has on their site", since KS has been a deprecated method for a long time.
 
I do agree that ASIO4ALL should be avoided and native ASIO drivers should be used instead if the user is working with audio recording, playback is certainly not what ASIO was developed for.
 
Curiously, there are reports on this very same thread that indicate different people hear differently with the exact same hardware. The point being that different bitperfect output methods should have little to no difference between each other regarding sound quality.
 
One thing about WASAPI that I think wasn't discussed previously is the difference between shared and exclusive mode. Some devices don't play nicely with shared mode, even introducing issues that therefore break bitperfect playback. If you used shared mode for WASAPI, I'd recommend you to set exclusive mode for WASAPI.
 
From the moment a bitperfect output method doesn't measure better and is audibly improved, going by the theory that one output method isn't as short as the other is rather pointless.
 
The next time, think before getting defensive and pulling a tantrum when civilized discussion was in order.
 
In any case, I'm done arguing with you.
 
Have a nice day.

 

[drez]

KS wasn't removed on Windows Vista/7/8, it is simply too buggy to be considered on modern OSes. Unfortunately, there are still many audio hardware manufacturers that have guides on how to set up computers in order to have optimal audio playback, but they haven't been updated since legacy Windows XP.
Users that are running modern OSes basically have two options for bitperfect playback, WASAPI or ASIO (yes, even non-ASIO compliant devices work by adding a wrapper).

I still dont see what is wrong with KS, all the hardware I have used worked using KS in XP, Win7 and 8. I never knew wasapi was floating point, but i always thought it sounded inferior to KS, imho of course.