Looking for a solid (used) (planar) open-backs with an emphasis on sub-bass

[der Koekje]

UPDATE: edited thread, upped my budget.

So recently I've slowly been getting into the game. I picked up the Oppo PM-3 just a few months ago because it seemed very intriguing. A cult-classic closed-back planar. I really needed closed back headphones currently as I'm sharing a loft space with my girlfriend so open backs are completely out of the question. It was used though and the pads needed replacing, as well as the headrest. I sent it off to get it customized in februari. To Belarus. A week before the invasion...

... Needless to say I'm not entirely confident I'll see my headphones back. But even if I do (and I hope I do), my living situation has changed and I'll have an office/gaming room all for myself so I don't need to restrict myself to closed-backs anymore. So, I'm on the lookout for the next step-up. A nice set of open-backs.

I'm after a solid headphone with a somewhat clean, neutral sound signature but with a clear separation in bass notes, no muddiness or woofiness, a fast bass response. I want a big emphasis on deep sub-bass but without making the regular bass feel bloated or even very bass-forward. My daily driver is a pair of AuGlamour F300 iems which tickle the sub-bass itch a little bit, same for the Oppo. I actually think my Airpods Pro do it the best, maybe it's the noise cancellation. Anyway, beating Airpods Pro shouldn't be too high of a bar to beat.

One issue I'm finding is treble. I'm always messing with the volume when listening to tracks as I can find treble notes on the AuGlamour and the Oppo quite shrill, maybe because I'm trying to bump up the volume to hear more sub-bass. I don't think that's the right way to listen to music. In any event, I really don't want a treble-forward headphone and I'm not sure the V-shape is for me either.

It'll mainly be used for listening to electronic music: think deep house, dub, jungle, hip-hop, trip-hop aggressive breakbeats, acid, ghettotech and experimental stuff. But it should be able to handle your average pop music too. I'll also be using it for gaming and for editing videos but I don't need the cleanest reference or anything like that.

I'm looking to spend around €500 €3000 but it's flexible and I'm buying used anyway. Especially older €1000-1500 models can usually be attained at this price if you look long enough and in the right places so please don't feel like you have to stick to this budget.

Currently looking at maybe the LCD-X (2021) which seems to tick a lot of the boxes and could probably be found at my budget, but there's a lot of options out there. I'm also looking at the Tecsun HP-300 because again, quirky. I'm weird.

I'd appreciate some pointers to the right direction. Thanks.

 

[Monsterzero]

try and find a used Audeze pre fazor LCD 2.1

 

[der Koekje]

try and find a used Audeze pre fazor LCD 2.1

I have questions since I never heard of this before.

1. What makes these so special? I.e. how have they not managed to replicate this kind of sound signature in later models.
2. How do I recognize these?
3. Is the LCD2.2 the same?
4. How is the durability on these? I imagine they had a good reason to not use this type of construction anymore?

 

[Monsterzero]

When the LCD2 first came out it was the undisputed sub bass king, however Audeze felt that the rest of the sound needed improving so they introduced the fazor, which increased the highs. but by doing so kinda ruined the bass to an extent.

Easy to recognize as the fazor models have teeth, or fins on the baffle that you can actually feel by running your hand across it. Thats the model you dont want.

Never heard the 2.2, so I cant tell you, but i doubt theyre the same. Audeze told me that the 2.1 was the warmest version of the LCd2 they ever made. You can email Audeze with the serial number and they will tell you what version you are considering purchasing.

No idea on the durability, but in the time I had my pair they worked fine and sounded fantastic for the genres i used them for.

 

[Xerath]

If you can withstand with it weight then LCD serie is the way to go
but if you aren't then I think Focal stuff can do this job for you , get an Elex or Clear is good too

 

[sssssam]

Usually, LCD-2.1 have the old style foam headband and the wooden connectors. Their SN usually start by 569.

IMO the best options are either a planar + bass EQ, or a Focal Elex/Clear (very punchy bass with solid extension, but doesnt have the low-end rumble of an Audeze/Hifiman)

 

[der Koekje]

Usually, LCD-2.1 have the old style foam headband and the wooden connectors. Their SN usually start by 569.

IMO the best options are either a planar + bass EQ, or a Focal Elex/Clear (very punchy bass with solid extension, but doesnt have the low-end rumble of an Audeze/Hifiman)

Thanks. I've heard that EQ'ing is maybe not the best practice for headphones? I'm not sure, as a newbie I've heard conflicting stories. I'll also say that I've tried Equalizer APO and I got a ton of audio latency on my, admittedly very competent PC. Not sure what gives but I ended up uninstalling all of that.

Could you tell me which other models I should be on the lookout for? These old LCD-2's, the more I read about them the more I hear you need to treat them with white gloves, and that their drivers can disintegrate at any time. Maybe I should look for something a bit more contemporary.

If you can withstand with it weight then LCD serie is the way to go
but if you aren't then I think Focal stuff can do this job for you , get an Elex or Clear is good too

I'll try some LCD-2's in the store tomorrow to see how the fit is and if I can stand it, thanks! You seem to have a lot of headphones judging by your signature. Can you think of other headphones which sort of fit what I'm after?

 

[Gjeven]

You can get Focal Clears for less than $1k USD new. They take a bass eq shelf pretty well if you want more bass.

 

[Gjeven]

Or Massdrop has Focal Elex available right now for less than $600. Thats a pretty good bargain

 

[inseconds99]

Focal Clear MG

 

[pbui44]

For an open-back with sub-bass: check out the KLH ultimate one:

https://klhaudio.eu/ultimate-one-headphones/

Also, consider adding a DAC/Amp that can drive it decently with the cheapest being a FX Audio DAC X6 mkii:

https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/dac-...s9018-qcc3008-24bit-192khz-black-p-14524.html

 

[Xerath]

Thanks. I've heard that EQ'ing is maybe not the best practice for headphones? I'm not sure, as a newbie I've heard conflicting stories. I'll also say that I've tried Equalizer APO and I got a ton of audio latency on my, admittedly very competent PC. Not sure what gives but I ended up uninstalling all of that.

Could you tell me which other models I should be on the lookout for? These old LCD-2's, the more I read about them the more I hear you need to treat them with white gloves, and that their drivers can disintegrate at any time. Maybe I should look for something a bit more contemporary.


I'll try some LCD-2's in the store tomorrow to see how the fit is and if I can stand it, thanks! You seem to have a lot of headphones judging by your signature. Can you think of other headphones which sort of fit what I'm after?

Clear , tbh it can be your end game if you didn't have plan to go on summit-fi

 

[der Koekje]

Thanks all. I do like the Clears but I don’t see them at great prices. Definitely something to consider down the road. For now I think I’ll take the LCD-2 Classics or the LCD-X 2021 as a reasonably modern, relative affordable option. My impression on the LCD-2C in the store was very positive.

Now to source a amp/DAC. I was thinking about a Topping A50S/D50S combo but it’s still a bit pricey. Would an all-in-one solution like the Topping DX3 Pro+ suffice or are there inherent downsides to having an integrated unit rather than a stack? (Other than the obvious which is that you can’t change them out individually.)

 

[pbui44]

For the LCD-2C, this is probably the best DAC and amp combo you can get for the money:

https://www.amazon.nl/Topping-Audio...qid=1651018635&sprefix=toppin,aps,271&sr=8-37
WITH
https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/dac-...usb-dac-24bit96khz-sa9023-es9023-p-11074.html
OR WITH
https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/port...ac-usb-c-es9038q2m-768khz-dsd512-p-15165.html

 

[der Koekje]

So update time! I still haven't bought headphones, if anything I'm more indecisive than ever but let me elaborate. Based on all the help I've had so far I've decided to take a few hours and sample a few headphones. Luckily, Ears Unlimited offers fantastic service and if you're ever in the Netherlands I highly recommend them. I have untrained ears and I though I probably wouldn't hear all the differences and nuances but to my surprise the differences were quite obvious, sometimes blindingly so. Even switching out the DAC and amp made a big difference to the sound which I didn't truly expect since I'm rather skeptical by nature.

Focal Clear MG

but if you aren't then I think Focal stuff can do this job for you , get an Elex or Clear is good too

IMO the best options are either a planar + bass EQ, or a Focal Elex/Clear (very punchy bass with solid extension, but doesnt have the low-end rumble of an Audeze/Hifiman)

You can get Focal Clears for less than $1k USD new. They take a bass eq shelf pretty well if you want more bass.

Focal Clear MG

Based on these messages I thought the Focal Clear or Clear MG would be a great headphone to try out first. I've tried the Clear MG on an iFi iDSD Micro and I thought the sound was... well, fun. Fun, but utterly unengaging. To me it has a very laid back sound that's immediately pleasing, like soaking in a warm bath. It's inoffensive but to me that just made it a bit bland, even if it's high quality bland. I can see the appeal but it's not really what I'm looking for, at least not for my main headphone. I'm missing some of the immediacy, especially in the lows.

Audeze LCD-2 Classic

I don't know anyone who has an LCD-2 pre-fazor lying around so this is the best I can do. I've tried the LCD-2C twice, once with a Burson Conductor 3x and once with the iFi. I thought these sounded great to be honest and it was only until I started playing with some higher end headphones that I noticed their technicalities or resolution (I guess? I'm spitballing) lacking. I think if I just stopped here I could have been pretty content for a while.

Audeze LCD-X

As I'm specifically looking for sub-bass, I got these recommended to me. These sound great too, I really quite like them but I am confused. They have sub-bass. At least, I wish the sub-bass was louder but listening to The The's Soul-Mining, I could hear Matt Johnson's throat scraping so clearly and so textured that it made me a literal double take. I was enthralled. No other headphone provided this. The confusion comes from this: looking at the graph now I'm noticing it has a steep bass roll-off, specifically in the lower region. So how can this be? Is this what they mean with bass extension?

Anyway, they have a reputation for being a bit dark and I can sort of sense that, I feel like the mids could be brought up just slightly and that the top end was maybe a bit less bright so I can finally stop adjusting the volume (or maybe I just need more sub-bass) but I do really like these. I also tried these on the iFi Zen where I noticed a subtle but noticeable change. Vocals became less lifelike and more metallic, I guess it makes sense to pair these with a nicer DAC and amp.

Sennheiser HD 800S

Every competition needs a referee and I though I'd clear my palette and sample the HD 800S. I was expecting to trash these, they're so not what I'm looking for. Trying them on the iFi iDSD, yeah: I don't love them. But... I don't hate them either. Far from it in fact. They are so detailed with such pinpoint precision that I kind of wish I had $2000 just to have them around, even if I don't always play the types of music that would pair well with these.

Then I tried the 800S on the Feliks Echo 2 (unknown, but I assume stock tubes). After a quick warm-up, this pairing really came alive. Treble which is normally easily shrill for me were just enveloped with a note of organic sounding warmth that it didn't bother me anymore but all the detail was still there. Just a fantastic listen with the right music.

So where am I at right now?

The 800S and Feliks Echo 2 was such an engaging combo that I've decided to get the Woo Audio WA-7 as my eventual pairing. I'm going to allow myself a higher budget and ask the same question again: I'm after a clean sound with a clear separation in bass notes with no muddiness or woofiness, and a fast bass response. I want a big emphasis on deep and textural sub-bass but without making the regular bass feel bloated. This time though: no holds barred. If you think a headphone serves this purpose, price-be-damned, then do recommend it. I'm also not afraid to EQ though I'd like the in the default tuning to at least reflect the sound.

Currently, I'm considering the following:

- Audeze LCD-X 2021, these are still in the running as they came closest in the headphones I've sampled so far even though their bass impact seems limited the texture as great.
- Audeze MM-500, these are of course unreleased but I'll probably hold off with my purchase until they're released anyway. I assume they're going to be pretty neutral but as with the LCD-X it doesn't seem like it needs to be an issue and if it's technically better then it would give me more breathing room if I do EQ?
- Audeze LCD-4z, just going by the graphs and reviews it seems quite linear with no mid-bass bump. Reviews note the sub-bass is very textural and defined.
- Hifiman HE6, but more specifically the NAN-6. This is a weird, quirky headphone but I can get it rather cheap and apparently the bass extension is the stuff of legends. Of course it needs big amplification but at least that's something I can plan for.