Long awaited Smyth SVS Realiser NOW AVAILABLE FOR PURCHASE
Jun 20, 2010 at 5:40 PM Post #646 of 2,910

 
Quote:
 
 
That reminds me, probably time to check in the our friend at AIX and see how his Surround Blu-Ray titles are coming along.  I picked up the AIX Blu-Ray Surround Sampler as part of my Smyth measurement fee.  But I would like some of the other Blu-Ray discs AIX has planned.


Ooooo.  Yes.  I almost forgot about that.  I'm probably going to be picking up an Oppo BDP-83 very soon (still not sure whether or not to get the SE version or not).
 
Anyone else here with a Realiser use it with an Oppo BDP-83?  How are you doing the bass management thing?  Simple +10dB to the LFE subwoofer channel?
 
-Ed
 
Jun 20, 2010 at 11:57 PM Post #647 of 2,910

 
Quote:
 

Ooooo.  Yes.  I almost forgot about that.  I'm probably going to be picking up an Oppo BDP-83 very soon (still not sure whether or not to get the SE version or not).
 
Anyone else here with a Realiser use it with an Oppo BDP-83?  How are you doing the bass management thing?  Simple +10dB to the LFE subwoofer channel?
 
-Ed

 
Of the two models, I'd recommend the "SE" version.  Audio is clearly better.
 
 
Jun 21, 2010 at 7:23 AM Post #648 of 2,910
Yes the Oppo BD-83SE/NE dedicated 2ch analog DAC is much better because it uses a separate 8-channel Sabre32 Ultra (ES9016) DAC chip by stacking 4 DACs for each of the Left and Right channels, this DAC is very fast and has its own internal clock. However the multi channel DAC uses an 8-channel Sabre Premier (ES9006) DAC chip for its 7.1 multi-channel output, this chip has no internal clock and is a lessor and older chip compared to the Sabre32 Ultra.
Anyway if the svs is using its own internal chip TI's PCM1798, granted the Sabre Premier is probably a better chip I would have my doubts if there would be a benefit because if the svs chip is doing an a/d/a conversion and that is after the Oppo has already done a D/A conversion too many conversions).
 
From what I have read about the svs is it has a very good down-mix probably like the Oppo, there for giving the illusion of 3D surround sound. like the Oppo.  The OppoSE/NE stereo 2ch down-mix is by far the best of any BD player on the market and yes I have had many BD/HD and DVD players. Not only is there a great sonic range but great impact/slam for bass,mids and highs. Plus the cross-over is flawless, however I would pair the Oppo for movie sound-tracks with dynamic head-phones and amp if you really want out-of-head 3D sound and the bass impact and like the svs the better the amp and headphones the better the overall sound will be.
 
Jun 21, 2010 at 10:48 AM Post #649 of 2,910
The "out of head" experience with the Smyth Realiser is on a completely different level.  You have to hear it to believe it. 
wink.gif

 
-Ed
 
Jun 22, 2010 at 2:17 AM Post #652 of 2,910
With regards to use with the Realiser, looks like there's no need to bother with the NuForce Edition, because of what they state on their site:

http://www.nuforce.com/hi/products/oppo_bdp83se/bdp83-faq.php
" We have done nothing to change the surround channels' analog circuit. "

I really have no intention of using for my primary stereo listening.  I want multi channel to be multi channel, not downmixed stereo.
The real deal for the SE is that they actually did use completely different DAC for the 8 channels.  The PSU change is pretty small, nothing revolutionary, just some better quality components, but overall, the layout and design look identical.

-Ed
 
Jun 22, 2010 at 3:14 AM Post #653 of 2,910
I agree and that's why I thought you would be better off with the BD-83 or the oppo BD-80 if you want a Oppo. I see very little reason to get a better chip/DAC if you are going to use the svs. Like I said the Oppo is doing a D/A conversion and then the Chip/DAC in the svs is doing a A/D/A conversion, unless of course you use a coaxial cable but then of-course you will only get the core sound-track from the BD.
 
As you must know the svs is going to down-mix any multi channel signal for 2 channel analog output  if you are using headphones/ Stax headspeakers.
 
What I am trying to find out is what the svs does with its down-mix.2ch analog stereo for use with headphones.
I have read the hype on svs web site but it doesn't really say anything other than talking about the shaker, head tracking and the entry level Stax none of which I am interest in. I am not interested in the shaker because of the documented sync problems, plus the noise level/vibration levels that the shaker will transmit to other areas of my home, and the head tracking because one of the strong points of head-phones is that you are always in the sweet spot plus the fact that I position my head-phones for there best sound and there for I don't move my head very much. I am sure if you understand head-phone you probably have the same concerns.
 
So can you please explain how the svs down-mixes and why its better than anything for 2ch analog headphones and down-mixing?
 
Jun 22, 2010 at 3:30 AM Post #654 of 2,910

 
Quote:
I agree and that's why I thought you would be better off with the BD-83 or the oppo BD-80 if you want a Oppo. I see very little reason to get a better chip/DAC if you are going to use the svs. Like I said the Oppo is doing a D/A conversion and then the Chip/DAC in the svs is doing a A/D/A conversion, unless of course you use a coaxial cable but then of-course you will only get the core sound-track from the BD.
 
As you must know the svs is going to down-mix any multi channel signal for 2 channel analog output  if you are using headphones/ Stax headspeakers.
 
What I am trying to find out is what the svs does with its down-mix.2ch analog stereo for use with headphones.
I have read the hype on svs web site but it doesn't really say anything other than talking about the shaker, head tracking and the entry level Stax none of which I am interest in. I am not interested in the shaker because of the documented sync problems, plus the noise level/vibration levels that the shaker will transmit to other areas of my home, and the head tracking because one of the strong points of head-phones is that you are always in the sweet spot plus the fact that I position my head-phones for there best sound and there for I don't move my head very much. I am sure if you understand head-phone you probably have the same concerns.
 
So can you please explain how the svs down-mixes and why its better than anything for 2ch analog headphones and down-mixing?


It's not a simple down mix at all, you really have to hear it for yourself to fully understand.  If you've heard a decent implementation of Dolby Headphone, it's like that but much much better, on a higher level, if you get a top notch PRIR done.  (My AIX Records PRIR's are my absolute favorites right now.)
 
Otherwise, the secret is in the DSP processing and the personalized measurement via tiny microphones inserted into your ears.  The Head Tracker and Tactile Transducers are merely icing on the cake.   Read up on this thread, and the Smyth Research website for more info. 
http://www.smyth-research.com/technology.html
 
I want the Oppo BDP-83SE for it's better 8 Channel analog outputs.   I have an Emotiva DMC-1 so I'm not going to be using HDMI bitstreaming, only analog. 
 
-Ed
 
Jun 22, 2010 at 3:51 AM Post #655 of 2,910


 
Quote:
Yup, that's my plan.
 
I had a recorded sample of an SVS Realiser processed stream on my HM-801 and tried it with the JH16 + JH-3A prototype at CanJam, and cranking up the bass was very much like cranking up the LFE channel subwoofer, it was very effective and a lot of fun.  It will come in handy a compensating for the vastly different levels of LFE bass in different movies.  As you can dial it down for overly bass heavy movies, and cranking it up for bass lean movies, particularly older movies.
 
-Ed



That is super interesting. How do you do the stream process? what kind of file (format) does it take, and what is the final format after processing?
 
Jun 22, 2010 at 4:27 AM Post #656 of 2,910
I hope you understand that what we a talking about is analog not digital. DSP is digital it reads and presses a digital signal (0s and 1s). And of-course headphones and headphone amps are analog, the signal the svs will receive from the Oppo is analog. Most any BD player will have some sort of DSP if it decodes audio formats.
 
As far as the tiny microphones for measurements I can fully understand why you would use them for room acoustics and balancing your speakers. However we are talking about headphones and headphones are very well balanced plus there is no room acoustics that would come into play using headphones.
 
Yes I have heard 5.1/Dolby headphones/amp that can decode Dolby and as svs website says its a waist of time and I agree with that.
 
You do know that your Emotiva DMC-1 can be fitted with a HDMI adaptor via RS-232.
 
I did email svs about there warranty, return policy and if they will sell the svs without the "icing on the cake". So far I have not received a reply. The only reason why I am asking svs this is because there website says nothing about these issues.
 
Saying that DSP and there Algorithms that svs uses are as good as you say, is there any sync problems other than the "Tactile Transducers"?
 
fyi there is a fair likely hood that Oppo will do for the 7.1 Ch analog what they did for the 2Ch analog. I beta the Nuforce Edition Oppo and I can say for sure that the 2ch audio board is a work of art, the clarity, micro detail and all the rest is the best i have ever heard from a BD player both for audio 2ch CD/SACD and for hi res movie soundtracks down-mix.
 
Jun 22, 2010 at 5:16 AM Post #657 of 2,910
My Comments in Bold below....
 
Quote:
I hope you understand that what we a talking about is analog not digital. DSP is digital it reads and presses a digital signal (0s and 1s). And of-course headphones and headphone amps are analog, the signal the svs will receive from the Oppo is analog. Most any BD player will have some sort of DSP if it decodes audio formats.
Uh, yeah.  I understand the difference between analog and digital.  That's not what I was talking about, and it was not my intention to argue about semantics nor about the signal processing scheme.  Merely that I wished to use the 8 channel analog outputs from the Oppo player.
 
As far as the tiny microphones for measurements I can fully understand why you would use them for room acoustics and balancing your speakers. However we are talking about headphones and headphones are very well balanced plus there is no room acoustics that would come into play using headphones.
*Sigh*  Like I've said, you need to read up on how the SVS Process actually works.  Specifically PRIR measurements, which is described in the link I provided above.  It's under "The Measurements".   The SVS System is capturing and then reproducing room acoustics along with speaker locations / characteristics.
 
You do know that your Emotiva DMC-1 can be fitted with a HDMI adaptor via RS-232.
Yes, but that's not what I was talking about, I was referring to the DMC-1 being older and not having the ability to decode TrueHD and DTS-HD MA.  It is merely a switching device, I have that adapter, but don't use it, because my TV has plenty of HDMI inputs for now.
 
I did email svs about there warranty, return policy and if they will sell the svs without the "icing on the cake". So far I have not received a reply. The only reason why I am asking svs this is because there website says nothing about these issues.
They likely won't sell the Realiser A8 system without the Head Tracker.  Tactile transducers are separate, and AFAIK are not offered by Smyth Research directly.  I bought mine directly from Crowson Tech.
 
Saying that DSP and there Algorithms that svs uses are as good as you say, is there any sync problems other than the "Tactile Transducers"?
What tactile transducer sync problem are you talking about?  Do you have website links of proof of this issue?  I have not experienced any such sync issues with my dual Crowson Tech TES 100.  If they are there, they must be very very slight, as I have yet to feel the difference.  The TES 100's are very very fast.  I have not used other Tactile transducers like Bass Shakers or Butt Kickers, as they are considerably slower than the Crowson transducers.
 
fyi there is a fair likely hood that Oppo will do for the 7.1 Ch analog what they did for the 2Ch analog. I beta the Nuforce Edition Oppo and I can say for sure that the 2ch audio board is a work of art, the clarity, micro detail and all the rest is the best i have ever heard from a BD player both for audio 2ch CD/SACD and for hi res movie soundtracks down-mix.
I was referring to the fact that NuForce stated that they did not make any changes or tweaks to the 8 Channel Analog output.
 
-Ed

 

 
 
Jun 22, 2010 at 6:00 AM Post #658 of 2,910
Well I guess the Realiser A8 package does not include any "Tactile Transducers". And I can understand why svs would not offer the TES 100 because it would not work with a headphone amp. *Sigh*
And yes I was talking about Tactile transducers like Bass Shakers or Butt Kickers.
 
btw when you do get your new Oppo turn off HDMI audio, running your HDMI cable directly to your display is the best way to go.
 
Jun 22, 2010 at 7:30 PM Post #659 of 2,910

 
Quote:
What I am trying to find out is what the svs does with its down-mix.2ch analog stereo for use with headphones.

So can you please explain how the svs down-mixes and why its better than anything for 2ch analog headphones and down-mixing?


Just to be sure you are clear on what the Realiser is trying to accomplish, and why it is actually a completely different product than any Dolby Headphone or similar implementation of "virtual surround sound" via headphones.
 
As was stated by Edwood, the product is first of all attempting to literally capture (i.e. "photograph" with calibration microphones inserted in YOUR own two ears) the acoustic signature of a listening environment, and store that measurement in a file called a PRIR.  Everything about that small or large room (or theater or auditorium, for that matter) which makes up how the calibration sweep signals are received inside YOUR own two ears and "how it actually sounds to you", is what makes up the essence of that PRIR.  EVERYTHING IN THE ENVIRONMENT is captured and recorded (like an EKG), and it thus reflects the speakers used and their placement, the electronics and amplification system and interconnects, the carpeting (or lack of it) and audio baffles on walls and ceilings, etc.
 
So the purpose of the PRIR is to try and capture exactly how a given listening environment SOUNDS TO YOUR EARS.  Nobody else's ears, and no multi-channel source like a movie or HD-audio.  The purpose of the PRIR is simply to digitize exactly how your ears and brain take in sound in that particular room environment. 
 
Why is this the goal of the PRIR?  Because the goal of the Realiser is TO DUPLICATE THAT SOUND NO MATTER WHAT THE EVENTUAL SOURCE SIGNAL IS!!  In other words, listening to any future source (be it mono, 2-channel, or multi-channel) played through the Realiser and headphones/amp SHOULD SOUND TO YOUR EARS EXACTLY AS IF YOU WERE IN THE ORIGINAL LISTENING ROOM ENVIRONMENT HEARING THAT SAME SOURCE PLAYED THROUGH THAT ROOM'S ACTUAL SPEAKERS.
 
In fact, that is also part of the calibration/measurement ritual... at the end you do an A/B test putting on the headphones and then taking them off, and inevitably marveling at how indistinguishable they seem to be.  Even though we all know they're just two headphones (being fed by an analog 2-channel signal coming out a some kind of A/D/A processor) feeding our two ears with a 2-channel audio, somehow we seem to get the exact same (a) "virtual speaker" placement illusion, both horizontal and vertical from where we're seated, and (b) tonal/volume equivalence with the true loudspeakers.
 
In other words, listening to any source through the headphones fed by the Realiser is truly the same (to our ears and brains) as if we were in that listening environment and hearing the same source through those real loudspeakers.
 
That's the goal of the product.  The goal is not to take an arbitrary multi-channel or 2-channel source and provide some magic "virtual surround" through headphones that everybody will experience exactly the same way and say "WOW!!!".  The Realiser experience is an individual one, since I hear sound with my ears and skull and brain differently than you hear exactly the same sound.  So you have your PRIR and I have my PRIR, both separately measured in the identical listening room environment.  And when used for playback through the Realiser and your headphones, you will hear a "duplicate" of the measured room as that source would have sounded to you if played in that room.  Same for me... but our PRIR's are distinctly different.
 
Now there are a few more details, like the second HPEQ file which measures how your headphone/amp sound TO YOUR OWN EARS (again measured using the calibration microphones and calibrated sweep signals, to define a proper EQ curve which will be blended in with the processing of the PRIR at playback time).
 
So... the PRIR measures how that particular room/electronics sound to your ears.  And the HPEQ measures how your headphone/amp sound to your ears, no matter what the source.  Combining the two measurements in reverse, used as a "filter" by which all source (mono, stereo, or multi-channel) can be played and output through your own personal headphone/amp to your own two ears will optimally duplicate exactly how that source would have sounded to those same two ears you have in that particular listening environment.
 
It's not Dolby Headphone or a downmix of multi-channel to 2-channel stereo to provide a sensation or illusion of virtual surround.  It (along with the PRIR and HPEQ measurement files, both of which are completely individualized to your own ears) is a device by which an acoustic "filter" of a listening environment can be fabricated and used to play back any source through headphones so that you believe you are listening to that source in the very original listening environment through its true loudspeakers (as measured in THAT listening environment through THAT PRIR file).
 
Note that you can take exactly the same source (e.g. BD of "Avatar") and play it back through the Realiser using two or three different PRIR's (all of which represent how YOUR ears and body and brain heard sound in two or three different audio studios or listening rooms), and the exact same source will sound quite different... as it should.  Because the Realiser is NOT trying to give you a "best possible multi-channel virtual surround sensation" for any given source signal.  It is trying to duplicate a listening environment no matter what the source signal is that's played through the PRIR/HPEQ "filter".  So just as three different audio rooms will sound different to you if you took the same BD movie to each room as a test, so will playing a constant source back through three different PRIR's (each of which defines a unique listening environment) sound different to you.  No one is right or wrong, but you'll no doubt eventually settle on which one "you like better" or that "sounds the best to you" and will no doubt eventually "pick that listening environment for all of your listening experiences" going forward.
 
I happen to agree with Edwood, that my AIX 5.1 PRIR is actually now my one-and-only "listening environment" that I use for EVERYTHING 5.1 (and 2-channel as well, actually)!  I have an AIX 7.1 PRIR as well but don't hardly get to use it.  What's most important, however, is that the acoustic characteristics of that AIX studio room in which we were lucky enough to have been allowed to get PRIR files calibrated make it possible for us to essentially have a $100K or more audio system in our Realiser/headphones... to listen to any source through.  It's like we went to AIX every time we watched/listened to HDTV or a BD movie and were once again thrilled to hear sound in that wonderful studio.  But it's in our headphones, to our ears, in our bedrooms.
 
Jun 22, 2010 at 8:16 PM Post #660 of 2,910
Heheh, I knew Daryl would decribe it better than me.
beerchug.gif

 
Quote:
Well I guess the Realiser A8 package does not include any "Tactile Transducers". And I can understand why svs would not offer the TES 100 because it would not work with a headphone amp. *Sigh*
And yes I was talking about Tactile transducers like Bass Shakers or Butt Kickers.
 
btw when you do get your new Oppo turn off HDMI audio, running your HDMI cable directly to your display is the best way to go.


Very few tactile transducers are self amplified.  The Bass Shakers and Butt Kickers still require a dedicated amp.  You'll need an appropriate speaker amp for the TES100.  The TES100 requires a decent amount of power, more than a headphone amplifier can provide.  The TES100 is rated at being able to handle up to 1000lbs!  Crowson sells dedicated ones with built in cross overs, but it's not necessary since the Realiser can set it's own cross over cut off for it's dedicated Tactile output.
 
Yes, I read about disabling the HDMI audio on AVSForum.  Thanks for the reminder, the interruptions, pops, clicks, etc. would've driven me crazy. 
 
-Ed
 

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