Little Dot MK8SE / MK6 Super Mods (All verified mods are on first page)
Mar 7, 2018 at 1:05 PM Post #2,972 of 4,154
Ok so time to get into it.

I really hope this explanation is easily understandable, so that everyone who is planning to try the CCS mod out can understand it. Please point out unclear points and I'll be happy to try and find another way to explain that part.

I've tried to explain the functioning of LTP a few times in this thread, but I think it's less than successful because one cannot jump in the middle of things, so to say. So I'll start from really basics and build on it. This is all good to know information anyway; all of it leads up to the final LTP scheme.


1.jpg

This is a triode stage. Without the resistor values we cannot know if it is a gain stage or a cathode follower.

If there is more resistance above the anode (R1) than below the cathode (R2), then it's a gain stage.

If R2 is bigger than R1, then it's a cathode follower.

When set up as a gain stage, the triode amplifies the voltage difference between control grid and cathode.

This means that the triode has two (2) inputs; the grid, and the cathode. This is very important, we'll get back to this later.


First we'll set the stage up as a cathode follower:

2.jpg

R1 is unnecessary for the cathode follower, it is here to make a point. Sometimes anode stoppers are used for stability reasons or for some NFB reasons like in the White Cathode Follower in the LD.

So, most of the resistance that is in series with the tube is beneath the cathode, and there is a signal output taken from the cathode.

Let's look at the anode voltage:

2 anode.jpg

It changes some 100mV. This is of course explained by Ohm's law; the 33k cathode load causes a load line with a lot of current variation, and the anode resistor is in series with the tube so Ohm's law dictates that since current is changing along with the tube's input signal, voltage across the anode resistor is changing.

But, of course it changes a lot more across the cathode resistor:

2 cathode output.jpg

Cathode follower is supposed to follow the input signal, not amplify it. So, here we see an output of about 80+% of input signal. This is because of the 33k loadline, it's not that good.

The anode and cathode waves are from the same timeframe. You can see that they are antiphase; the anode wave is 180 degrees inverted in relation to the grid signal, and the cathode wave is not inverted, same phase as grid signal. This is very important later.

So, that's a cathode follower. Next we'll make a gain stage:

3.jpg

So basically we've just flipped the resistors top to bottom and vice versa. This scheme is very familiar for everybody I'm sure.

Is there amplification now? Let's look at the anode output:

3 anode output.jpg

Yes there is. The model I used here has a µ of about 20, and we can see the gain of this circuit is about 8. The 33k loadline is steep, but it's not that steep. What happened to the gain?

Let's look at the cathode:

3 cathode.jpg

It's swinging about 200mV.

Now you have to understand that the tube does not know what is supposed to be it's output. Ohm's law produces these signals at the anode and cathode simply because there is resistance in series there.

We noted a bit earlier that the anode output is inverted phase, and the cathode output is non-inverted phase. So that means there is 2VPP at the grid, and 200mVPP at the cathode. Let's look at these superimposed:

3 cathode degeneration.jpg

Blue wave is cathode, green wave is grid, and red wave is anode output.

The difference between grid and cathode is about 800mVPP, which is amplified to about 16VPP.

This effect is called cathode degeneration. It is known to affect frequency response, because the bigger the wave amplitude, the bigger the effect (on account of Ohm's law). Bass typically has bigger amplitude waves and treble has smaller amplitude waves, so this eats up some bass. It also affects dynamics (adds compression) because of the same thing.

Unbypassed or partially bypassed cathodes are used in guitar amps to add these things; compression and cut bass (prevents farty bass distortion).

The important thing here is to understand the way phase works here, and that the tube doesn't know what it's output is supposed to be.


Let's fix the cathode degeneration:

4.jpg

C2 should keep the cathode node at AC ground. It charges and discharges when needed to achieve this. Let's look at the cathode node now:

4 cathode.jpg

The wave has shrunk from 200mVPP to about 1mVPP. But, this is frequency dependent: these sims are all done at 1kHz, at 50Hz or 30Hz the results would be different (much worse).

We can also see there is some DC drift. This is because the capacitor has to charge thru the triode and the anode resistor. That's a lot of series resistance (and impedance) to feed thru. I even added some 50mS of simtime before Spice starts to record results, and it still isn't fully charged.

This is a symptom of the reason why C2 cannot handle bass frequencies perfectly. Once it's discharged during a bass peak, it cannot instantly recharge. This means there is some cathode degeneration still going on, it's just (a lot) less than before.

Now that the difference between grid signal and cathode wave is much bigger (because cathode is now at 'DC'), the anode output signal is also bigger:

4 anode output.jpg

About 30VPP, giving a gain of about 15. Sounds about right with the 33k anode load.

The important thing to understand here is WHY the gain is now bigger.
 
Mar 7, 2018 at 1:05 PM Post #2,973 of 4,154
bloodhawk:

If the bottom tube cathode resistor and capacitor are ok, it pretty much leaves the biasing chip.

Gotcha, so these would be the 330R resistors and the 220uF caps?
 
Mar 7, 2018 at 2:31 PM Post #2,974 of 4,154
bloodhawk, yes.

Back to tube theory:

So we've gone thru stages using cathode as output and anode as output. I've also said that the tube doesn't know which output it's supposed to use. Let's look at an extreme case of this:

concertina.jpg

This is called a concertina phase splitter, or alternatively a cathodyne phase splitter. (I think both of these come from HIFI manufacturer brand names.)

There is equal amount of resistance in series both above the tube and below the tube. Nothing is bypassed with a cap. Knowing what we just went thru in my previous message, what kind of an output do you now predict this produces?

Think about it for a second before looking at the next picture.

concertina waves.jpg

Did you get it right? This is exactly as theory would predict. Anode output is inverted, cathode non-inverted, and equal resistances produce equal amplitudes.

So it really is just a matter of Ohm's law, and the ratio between the anode and cathode resistances. The tube changes transconductance (meaning alters the amount of current that goes thru it), and the rest is just Ohm's law.

The concertina has very good properties on paper, (pretty much perfect balance), but it has some shortcomings. As you can see, the amplitude is compressed; 2VPP at grid produces 1.6VPP outputs. This reduces dynamics.

Also the anode and the cathode don't have equal output impedances (meaning they don't have equal ability to output current to load). This sim has 470k load on the other side of the capacitors, but in many real life cases there is a much harsher load there (especially on transients), and then bad things happen to the balance.

So this type of phase splitter is not ideal for transparent high fidelity sound reproduction. It's very commonly used in guitar amps though.


We know that triodes amplify the difference between grid and cathode voltage. In the previous part I stated right in the beginning that a triode has two inputs; grid and cathode.

We looked at a situation where cathode is at AC ground, so essentially grounded for signal purposes. What about this:

5.jpg

Would it work? There is a difference between grid and cathode voltage after all!

Let's look at the waves:

5 waves.jpg

Grid is grounded of course, green is cathode at 2VPP and blue is anode at 36VPP! This gives a gain of about 18.

Works just as theory predicted. Triode amplifies difference between cathode and grid voltage. I keep banging on this particular drum because it is essential to the LTP operation.

As an aside, this kind of grounded grid amplifier was very common in radio frequency amplification as the first stage amplifying input from an antenna. The cathode resistor was replaced with a small choke, giving high impedance at very high frequency while having a low DC resistance to bias the tube right. The point of it was that capacitance between cathode and anode was almost nonexistent; this is important because the antenna produces pretty much no current at all to drive this parasitic capacitance. So while a grid input would have a high Miller capacitance, cathode input doesn't.

We noted earlier that the cathode OUTPUT is non-inverting. This is also true of the cathode INPUT. If you look at the waves above, they are in phase.


So, let's move closer to the goal:

6.jpg

Here we have a pair of single ended gain stages. They are not connected to each other in any way except via the B+, which here is pure DC. Left side receives a grid input of 2VPP, and right side receives no input with grounded grid.

No surprise what the outputs look like:

6 anode cathode.jpg

I'm sure you can guess that was the right side.

6 anode cathode left.jpg

Left side has some cathode degeneration (green wave), but there is a decent output still.

This type of circuit is of course quite pointless. Let's see what happens when we connect the cathodes:

7.jpg

Now this is starting to look a lot more familiar now! Based on the previous examples, predict what happens here after the cathodes are connected together.

Since they now share a cathode node, there is only one voltage there:

7 cathode.jpg

It is of course produced by the left tube; it is in phase with the left tube grid signal.

Now this is where it might get a bit tricky, keeping all the phase in your brains.

So left tube grid gets signal. Let's call it's phase as 0. There is an unbypassed resistor at the cathode, so there appears "cathode output" voltage. It also has phase 0.

Now left tube anode output is at phase 180 since grid to anode output is inverted phase.

Right tube receives a cathode input, when using cathode to anode input phase is not inverted. So right tube anode output signal has phase 0.

So what do we end up with?

7 anodes.jpg

Green wave is left anode, and blue wave is right anode. Left output is about 24VPP, right is about 7VPP.

Of course left output is much bigger; left tube input (at the grid) is 2VPP. There is some cathode degeneration, but not that much, about 600mVPP as was seen above.

This 600mVPP is the whole of the input signal for the right side tube, so naturally it's output is much smaller.

Why is the cathode signal (parasitic output for left side tube, input signal for the right side tube) so small?

Well because of Ohm's law; the 750 ohm cathode resistor (the tail) is not that big. So what happens if we make it a lot bigger?

8.jpg

Now if we make the tail resistor bigger, we must make the bottom of the tail voltage much lower, negative. I tried to keep the current about the same, so the bias points are about the same; if the same current flows thru a resistor, there needs to be a voltage across it. Ohm's law again.

So about -1000V B- there. Easy to build, at least in Spice!

But now the tail is 120k instead of 0.75k. Based on what we've gone thru here, predict what happens and why.


Well, first of all, the left tube experiences a lot more cathode degeneration.

Because of that, the right side receives a much bigger input signal via cathode input.

So, outputs should be much closer to amplitude.

Let's look at the outputs then:

8 anodes.jpg

Almost same in amplitude! With only one input into the whole circuit!

Anode output amplitudes are now about 16VPP. But, since the signal is now balanced, we don't have to think in terms of SE signals anymore; the DIFFERENTIAL output amplitude is both waves added together, so 32VPP.

When we look at the previous example with the 750 ohm tail, the outputs were about 24 and 7 VPP, together about 31 VPP, this tells us that the sum of the output amplitudes is pretty much always the same (with the same anode resistors).

If we were to increase anode resistance, we'd get an overall larger differential output (increased gain).

Let's look at the left grid voltage and the cathode node voltage:

8 cathode grid.jpg

Blue is left grid input, and green is cathode node, which has of course some DC component also (bias voltage for the tubes).

You can see the cathode wave is 50% amplitude of the left grid wave. This causes two things:

1) it suppresses left tube gain (cathode degeneration); we can see this by looking at the individual outputs and comparing to the previous scheme with the 750 ohm tail

2) increases right tube input signal via cathode input; this increases right side anode output amplitude.

Balance achieved!


But how does the circuit 'know' how to stop the cathode degeneration at 50% of left grid amplitude? After all, there is now 120k beneath the left side cathode, and only 33k above the anode. Shouldn't the left side be much more of a cathode follower, yet there is a big anode output?

Think about it and give your suggestions. We'll go thru this at a later time.

This is the essentials; the same way that this topology can compensate for missing input signal on one side, it can compensate for tube differences.
 
Mar 8, 2018 at 6:38 AM Post #2,975 of 4,154
The first gainstage example, the one with the unbypassed cathode, should read about 800mVPP of swing at the cathode. I mistakenly only looked at the numbers after the decimal point and missed that the volt had changed. Doesn't affect the point though.
 
Mar 8, 2018 at 7:23 AM Post #2,976 of 4,154
So i had done some more testing last night at his place, and the right channel is definitely biasing lower than the left channel by 10-15mA .Not sure why the right channel meter was not showing this over the weekend.

Do you mean the meters are showing this?

You could rule out the opamps by swapping the one in the possibly faulty circuit with another one. But first you could just check those resistors in the area around the gain switches and compare with the other circuit or channel to the possibly faulty one. It doesn't look a massive difference to me so probably not a grounded connection like I had, but also possibly a pot imbalance, if you say the difference was there before, don't know how you would check that though.

I would also check those new connections you have done to make sure they're making good connections with their traces if you haven't already done so.

Also check for possible signs of excess heat anywhere.
 
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Mar 8, 2018 at 10:39 AM Post #2,977 of 4,154
Do you mean the meters are showing this?

You could rule out the opamps by swapping the one in the possibly faulty circuit with another one. But first you could just check those resistors in the area around the gain switches and compare with the other circuit or channel to the possibly faulty one. It doesn't look a massive difference to me so probably not a grounded connection like I had, but also possibly a pot imbalance, if you say the difference was there before, don't know how you would check that though.

I would also check those new connections you have done to make sure they're making good connections with their traces if you haven't already done so.

Also check for possible signs of excess heat anywhere.

Yeap the meters.
Gotcha ill try that tomorrow.

Will do. I do trust his soldering skills, but will ask him to check the solder joints again to be triple sure , just in case.
 
Mar 8, 2018 at 11:55 AM Post #2,978 of 4,154
Yeap the meters.
Gotcha ill try that tomorrow.

Will do. I do trust his soldering skills, but will ask him to check the solder joints again to be triple sure , just in case.

Yep, just check component leg to board trace not just the pad.

....and you could take voltages at the anode resistors, should be about 75v and cathode bypass caps, about 90v give or take. That will help you zero in on the possible faulty circuit.
 
Mar 8, 2018 at 11:57 AM Post #2,979 of 4,154
Yep, just check component leg to board trace not just the pad.

....and you could take voltages at the anode resistors, should be about 75v and cathode bypass caps, about 90v give or take. That will help you zero in on the possible faulty circuit.
Aye sir!
 
Mar 8, 2018 at 12:42 PM Post #2,980 of 4,154
Sorry those voltages were from my faulty circuits! I should have said 100v on the B+ side and 80v on the other side of the 330ohm anode resistor.
 
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Mar 8, 2018 at 12:43 PM Post #2,981 of 4,154
Sorry those voltages were from my faulty circuits! I should have said 100v on the B+ side and 80v on the other side of the 330ohm resistor.

Tool late, amp blew up.


Jk :p
 
Mar 8, 2018 at 2:50 PM Post #2,982 of 4,154
Mar 8, 2018 at 2:56 PM Post #2,983 of 4,154
Hey, what're you doing following my advice anyway, you should know better lol.

I really dont know this amp as well as you guys. If i could find a schematic for this thing, it would be a different story.

Plus since its not my amp that im fiddling with here, id rather get a second opinion to be sure of whats up and fix it.
 
Mar 8, 2018 at 4:23 PM Post #2,984 of 4,154
I really dont know this amp as well as you guys. If i could find a schematic for this thing, it would be a different story.

Plus since its not my amp that im fiddling with here, id rather get a second opinion to be sure of whats up and fix it.
I’ve posted schematic of the audio circuit and psu schematic is posted on first page, hand drawn.
 
Mar 8, 2018 at 5:03 PM Post #2,985 of 4,154
I’ve posted schematic of the audio circuit and psu schematic is posted on first page, hand drawn.

Yeah found the PSU schematic, but havent been able to locate the audio circuit, do you by any chance remember which page it would be on? (or maybe a close enough guess)
 

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