[HeadphoneAddict]

Quote:

I have an Apogee Mini DAC with firewire 400 card.  I want to use it with Ipad in my car.
 
If I could get this to work with the CCK I would sell it and get a USB Apogee mini DAC. I like the Apogee Mini DAC because it has the option of variable volume control or fixed, it is a good headphone amp, and it can be used without a computer (unlike the Apogee duet or Apogee Duet 2). I also can easily run the Apogee Mini DAC off a car battery which eliminated dirty power issues. It has a ton of inputs (firewire or USB, coax, optical, and AES/EBU  and even if I have say 2 optical devices I can convert the AES/EBU input into an optical with a HOSA adaptor (or similar if anyone knows a better one).
 
Currently the Mini DAC connects to A Nakamichi Music Bank via coax, an Apple TV via optical, a Qumi 5 projector via Hosa AES/EBU to Optical converter....and i would hope to connect an iPad 3 via USB.
 
So before I buy an iPad 3 and sell (or trade)  my existing Apogee Mini DAC with Firewire for an Apogee Mini DAC with USB..... could anyone tell me if it works? And Headphone Addict...you used to love your Apogee Mini DAC...did you swap it for something else???
 
What if i use a USB to coaxial sdif converter???  
 
http://www.virtualvillage.com/usb-mini-converter-to-spdif-output-008415-011.html?origin=product-search&kwd=&source=pla&gclid=CKza8MyPmrICFQeCQgodRl0Awg
 
Would this work?

 
I replaced the Apogee mini-DAC with a Nuforce DAC-100 which works much better when amping my HD800, and have a Stello DA100 Signature to feed my maxed Woo WA6 and KGSS in the bedroom rig.  I'm still evaluating the DAC-100 RCA outputs when feeding better amps, but I miss having the balanced outputs so far.
 
I don't use the iPad with CCK much anymore because I'm using a Nuforce iDo to convert iPad digital out into coax S/PDIF and feeding that into the DAC-100.  I don't recall if I ever tried the iPad CCK into the mini-DAC via USB, but I do know it worked with the CEntrance DACmini.  There is no reason why it wouldn't work with any desktop USB DAC that doesn't draw too much power from the CCK.
 
The mini-DAC used as a DAC line-out feeding a nicer amp is probably still slightly better than my Stello DA100, especially via USB where the Stello USB isn't as good as optical or coax. The mini-DAC via USB is very good, and on the Mac I couldn't tell a difference between it's USB and it's optical.  So, changing FW to USB on the mini-DAC wouldn't be a downgrade.  
 
As for S/PDIF, I know the uDAC-1 worked with the iPad to offer Coax out from thge CCK > USB input, but I don't know if other USB > S/PDIF would draw too much power.  IT MAKES MORE SENSE to use a digital dock, like iPure, Wadia transport, or Nuforce iDo to get S/pdif out of the iPad with less jitter than the CCK.

 

[Golden Ears]

Quote:

 
I replaced the Apogee mini-DAC with a Nuforce DAC-100 which works much better when amping my HD800, and have a Stello DA100 Signature to feed my maxed Woo WA6 and KGSS in the bedroom rig.  I'm still evaluating the DAC-100 RCA outputs when feeding better amps, but I miss having the balanced outputs so far.
 
I don't use the iPad with CCK much anymore because I'm using a Nuforce iDo to convert iPad digital out into coax S/PDIF and feeding that into the DAC-100.  I don't recall if I ever tried the iPad CCK into the mini-DAC via USB, but I do know it worked with the CEntrance DACmini.  There is no reason why it wouldn't work with any desktop USB DAC that doesn't draw too much power from the CCK.
 
The mini-DAC used as a DAC line-out feeding a nicer amp is probably still slightly better than my Stello DA100, especially via USB where the Stello USB isn't as good as optical or coax. The mini-DAC via USB is very good, and on the Mac I couldn't tell a difference between it's USB and it's optical.  So, changing FW to USB on the mini-DAC wouldn't be a downgrade.  
 
As for S/PDIF, I know the uDAC-1 worked with the iPad to offer Coax out from thge CCK > USB input, but I don't know if other USB > S/PDIF would draw too much power.  IT MAKES MORE SENSE to use a digital dock, like iPure, Wadia transport, or Nuforce iDo to get S/pdif out of the iPad with less jitter than the CCK.

 
Larry, I knew you would have an answer. Many Thanks!
 
Ah..The Nuforce iDo sounds good...EXCEPT it is limited to 48kHz..I want to be able to play hi-rez files. The apogee mini Dac can handle 24bit /192 so that is what I am shooting for.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Modabpck0Q
 
optical can do 24/96 and with an iPad  flac player..I should be able to hit higher rez?? NO?
 
The CCK Used in this video)  is said to be full of jitter but does the Apogee Mini DAC reclock it anyway? Asking apogee for advice was fruitless.

 

[Thraex]

There is no reason why it wouldn't work with any desktop USB DAC that doesn't draw too much power from the CCK...
IT MAKES MORE SENSE to use a digital dock, like iPure, Wadia transport, or Nuforce iDo to get S/pdif out of the iPad with less jitter than the CCK.

There are at least two reasons why even a desktop powered USB DAC will not works:
1) It's USB must be powered (or draw less 20mv) and that's difficult so the need of a powered USB Hub (not any battery powered USB chargers pass data too without Y split USB cables).
2) It must works driverless at USB specs (USB transcoder chip used matter, even some that works don't support 88,22Khz to complicate things more).
My desktop powered M2Tech Young USB DAC (up to 32/384 with driver) with CCK won't work neither at USB 1.1 i.e up to 24/96 driverless, my portable unpowered iBasso D7 works up to 24/192 driverless but only with powered USB Hub.

" Works" in which sense?
Do you want bit-perfect at 24 bits or 16/44 is enough?
The former much more complicated, most configs downsample to 16 bit in the chain:

Not any digital dock is able to pass 24 bit, some are limited in freq or downsample to 16 bit.
Not any server or software is 24 bit compatible (only LMS/iPerg or iTunes HS), most downsample to 16 bit before reaching the DAC.
PlugPlayer and UPnP servers always downsable to 16 bit.

When you add portability (battery powered devices) things are even more complicated.
Not a single battery powered 24 bit DAC/Amp is confirmed working at 24 bits, not a single portable storage wi-fi device (which can improve storage capacity for big 24 bit files) is even mentioned anywhere.

Look here to start understanding why it's so difficult to use iDevices at bit perfect 24bits:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/625493/ipad-with-24-bit-files-high-storage-capacity-portability-which-configuration-works-without-downsampling#post_8667839

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

"Works" = plays all files in itunes (ALAC through 16/44) and through Goldenear app plays hi res through 24/192.  I would say that "works" is pretty comprehensive.
 
In both cases it sends current through the Dragonfly. I suspect that there is some power toggle that is needed.  That guess is based on the fact that if I unplug the power in the middle of playing, it continues working for a while then stops.

 
Problems must be somewhere in the wiring of the hub or the splitter cable that's messing up the data flow with the CCK. It's kind of like driving through downtown streets with too many one-way reroutes/management vs taking the freeway that cuts through the outskirts, since it's far from a straightforward USB output to a hub. Best thing to do for now is just use whichever config works and hope somebody fixes the firmware

 

[Golden Ears]

If I need another kludge to make a USB DAC work with the iPAd like  T3 or something, I'd rather just convert my 30 PIN iPad digital signal  to Coaxial or Optical and use a DAC with its own power supply.
 
I don't think this thread need be limited to USB DACs.  Now if only there was a way to make a 30 Pin digital cable to firewire 400..  but I absolutly want to be able to feed my DAC 24/96kHz signal at a minimum and hopefully 24/192. My Apogee Mini DAC seems to have 24 bit converters anyhow...so the less 16 bit I can use the better. Somehow using a 16 bit chipset for 16 bit is better than using a 24 bit for 16 bit... not at all sure whether it is a mathematical reason...or it just sounds better for another reason.

 

[Golden Ears]

Quote:

 
Larry, I knew you would have an answer. Many Thanks!
 
Ah..The Nuforce iDo sounds good...EXCEPT it is limited to 48kHz..I want to be able to play hi-rez files. The apogee mini Dac can handle 24bit /192 so that is what I am shooting for.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Modabpck0Q
 
optical can do 24/96 and with an iPad  flac player..I should be able to hit higher rez?? NO?
 
The CCK Used in this video)  is said to be full of jitter but does the Apogee Mini DAC reclock it anyway? Asking apogee for advice was fruitless.

I did own a Wadia i170 and was disappointed in how it handled the iMod 4th gen. running lossless... it sounded dead and lifeless. So I am wary to buy another Wadia inexpensive solution. I love my Wadia 860X ...even though its 24/96khz board died today and needs service... That player is the player used in the Wadia/Blue Hawaii/Stax Omega combo at my SoCal headfi meets that everyone loved.

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

Quote:

There are at least two reasons why even a desktop powered USB DAC will not works:
1) It's USB must be powered (or draw less 20mv) and that's difficult so the need of a powered USB Hub (not any battery powered USB chargers pass data too without Y split USB cables).
2) It must works driverless at USB specs (USB transcoder chip used matter, even some that works don't support 88,22Khz to complicate things more).
My desktop powered M2Tech Young USB DAC (up to 32/384 with driver) with CCK won't work neither at USB 1.1 i.e up to 24/96 driverless, my portable unpowered iBasso D7 works up to 24/192 driverless but only with powered USB Hub.
" Works" in which sense?
Do you want bit-perfect at 24 bits or 16/44 is enough?
The former much more complicated, most configs downsample to 16 bit in the chain:
Not any digital dock is able to pass 24 bit, some are limited in freq or downsample to 16 bit.
Not any server or software is 24 bit compatible (only LMS/iPerg or iTunes HS), most downsample to 16 bit before reaching the DAC.
PlugPlayer and UPnP servers always downsable to 16 bit.
When you add portability (battery powered devices) things are even more complicated.
Not a single battery powered 24 bit DAC/Amp is confirmed working at 24 bits, not a single portable storage wi-fi device (which can improve storage capacity for big 24 bit files) is even mentioned anywhere.
Look here to start understanding why it's so difficult to use iDevices at bit perfect 24bits:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/625493/ipad-with-24-bit-files-high-storage-capacity-portability-which-configuration-works-without-downsampling#post_8667839

 
I said, "There is no reason why it wouldn't work with any desktop USB DAC that doesn't draw too much power from the CCK" so we agree there in regards to power, i.e. if the desktop USB DAC doesn't draw too much power then you don't need a powered USB hub, plain and simple.  I gave my DACmini as an example.
 
I admit that there are some USB DAC's that require drivers, and I forgot about them because I am a Mac person and we never have to install drivers to make a DAC work.
 
The Nuforce iDo supports 24/48.  I don't know about the other digital docks, but 24/48 is sufficient for most anyone.  I'm not sure that I could tell a difference between 24/48 and 24/96, as I already stated when I compared the Apogee 24/48 USB vs it's 24/96 optical - they sounded the same to me.  In fact, most of the time lossless 16/44.1 is enough if the DAC is doing the job right.
 
My LaCie NAS server is UPnP and DLNA compliant and 24 bit compatible, and I can stream 24/192 music to my Perfectwave DAC Bridge just fine.  There is no downsampling for me.  But I don't see why that is important in this discussion.
 
Sure portable is always more complicated.
 
I thought we had to use FLAC player on iPad to play 24 bit music anyway.  Am I wrong?  (I do recall reading somewhere that while the iPad's music player is limited to 16/48 that you can stream 24/96 music through the iPad, but not sure how).
 
And I still think that the CCK into a USB DAC has more jitter than an Apple certified digital dock feeding an S/PDIF capable DAC.  My only portable USB DAC to really make the iPad/CCK sound close to the USB output of my Macbook is my Pico DAC-only, which uses an ASRC to upsample to 24/96 and in the process reduces jitter.  My iBasso D4 or Audioengine D1 (with powered hub) don't sound bad with the CCK, but they aren't really an upgrade over a nice line out dock into a portable amp, using the iPad's DAC.  The Pico DAC-only is clearly more transparent with iPad/CCK, even though all these DACs sound much closer to each other when used with a Macbook (i.e. the gap narrows when using all these DACs on a computer, but the high jitter of the cck makes some worse than others).

 

[Thraex]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeadphoneAddict /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
I said, "There is no reason why it wouldn't work with any desktop USB DAC that doesn't draw too much power from the CCK" so we agree there in regards to power, i.e. if the desktop USB DAC doesn't draw too much power then you don't need a powered USB hub, plain and simple. I gave my DACmini as an example.
...
I thought we had to use FLAC player on iPad to play 24 bit music anyway. Am I wrong? (I do recall reading somewhere that while the iPad's music player is limited to 16/48 that you can stream 24/96 music through the iPad, but not sure how

 
For me 24 bit it's a must have feature, in my high-end home stereo I can hear better sound vs same file at 16 bit (tested downsampling the same file or same ripped CDs vs 24/xxx downloaded album). It depends if your system is able to show big or small differences or none at all between different files resolutions.
Given high-end headphones setups achieve similar performances and for peace of mind why not starting wih best possible source=high resolution files?.
Using iPad (no other iDevice is reported working at 24 bits without downsampling) it's at least technally interesting to know how to pass bit perfect 24 bit data to the DAC.
 
I don't mean any 24/192 DAC/Amp sounds better than any limited to 16/44 playing CDs, for sure overall quality/design is the first thing that matters.
Hardware variables: clock quality (not any device has even 2 clocks needed for all samples), USB/opt/coax transcoder chip, reduce jitter design, analog output design, built in amp quality (Ohm/power output range), power design,...
Software variables: player and settings used, drivers (ASIO, WASAPI,....), OS and settings, streaming server settings, ripper settings,...
Anything in the chain do some work in a different way even if bits are bits, but for digital audio also "time" matter.
Someone like me is so picky to use dbpoweramp CD Ripper with ultra secure rip setting which takes more time than any built in player ripping software and has the Accuraterip check for peace of mind. I've also checked that using different softwares could output small differences even in file size (ripping or transcoding), weren't they "bits are bits"?
 
If you mean iPad portability in a home, I get much better sound (more details, dynamics, space, smoother rendering, bass definition...) using Logitech Media Server + iPeng (in-app purchase of player needed) than iTunes Home Sharing with stock player, the former plays FLACs too (no need to convert to ALACs) and has a much better and faster interface, check it out.
 
If you mean portability everywhere (BTW iPad stock player can do up to 24/384 ALACs example here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Modabpck0Q ), we need to find a solution to bypass iPad internal storage capacity limits for those big files, with a portable storage wi-fi devices able to stream 24 bit without downsampling.
I've high hopes for the Seagate GoFlex Satellite http://www.seagate.com/external-hard-drives/portable-hard-drives/wireless/seagate-satellite/ sice I've read carefully its manual, faq and other infos. The most intersting parts are:
In the manual it's clearly stated it does not transcode (convert) files but is able to stream any files the device supports or files supported by third-party apps.
In the FAQ it's stated it has some DLNA capability (but not fully certified), AirPlay it's not yet supported, but some third-party applications are capable of streaming files from the browser interface or DLNA connection and playing that via AirPlay.
If it doesn't transcode but decode files using the built in iPad palyer it should works at least with ALAC/AIFF, if it uses the player inside its dedicated app it'll probably downsample, it's still possible to use third-party apps but I'm uncertain which and how to do it.
However, even if it's not currently possible, for sure Seagate can do a simple software update to allow 24 bit streaming with in built player.
I'm very near to buy it just to find out if it's capable right now, and I'm experimentig with iPeng and DLNA servers to check if it's generally possible to bypass LMS so to use iPeng and SGFS.
 
I don't think jitter is the only thing that matters, however even here http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/discuss/feedback/newsletter/2011/06/1/ipad-streams-high-resolution-audio-dac1 you can check that iPad/CCK has at least very good measures, maybe not different from other top configs for 24 bit-perfect data.
And we could bypass CCK with dedicated devices like CLAS which officially supports 24 bit for iPad (faq not manual page 7 here http://cypherlabs.com/images/pdfs/Cypher_Labs_AlgoRhythm_Solo_FAQ.pdf ).
I could add that a battery powered device has a cleaner power delivery that any noisy PC or Mac PSU, if it matter less than jitter is to be determined in each setup.
 
Since iPad 24 bit-perfect and portability of some sort isn't so clear and doesn't seems to get much interest everywhere, I've started a dedicated thraead to recap things that works, I'll update asap the OT ( http://www.head-fi.org/t/625493/ipad-with-24-bit-files-high-storage-capacity-portability-which-configuration-works-without-downsampling#post_8667839 ) when new configs are reported accurately or I'll discover more. Please contribute to add infos.

 

[Golden Ears]

Very useful I had no idea I could wirelessly stream 24/96 from an ipad to a Mac. I knew I could stream 16/44.1 or 16/48  but this is useful.  What about 24/192kHz?
 
The issue I have is not having internet in my car. And of course I am using an iPad with an Apogee Mini DAC.
 
I tried using 2nd gen Airport Express- setting it up as a Wireless Wi-fi network, and joining iPad and my compiuter to it.  But it works only for a short while and detects no internet and the "remote app" stops working.
 
I have an app called "tether"  http://www.macrumors.com/2011/11/29/itether-app-offers-internet-tethering-on-your-iphone-for-one-time-fee/
 
Which sets up an ad hoc network.. I was wondering if that might work?
 
You see.... if you use a transportable rig...... you may as well be able to use it in your car.

 

[Thraex]

Quote:

Very useful I had no idea I could wirelessly stream 24/96 from an ipad to a Mac. I knew I could stream 16/44.1 or 16/48  but this is useful.  What about 24/192kHz?
 
The issue I have is not having internet in my car. And of course I am using an iPad with an Apogee Mini DAC.
 
I tried using 2nd gen Airport Express- setting it up as a Wireless Wi-fi network, and joining iPad and my compiuter to it.  But it works only for a short while and detects no internet and the "remote app" stops working.
 
I have an app called "tether"  http://www.macrumors.com/2011/11/29/itether-app-offers-internet-tethering-on-your-iphone-for-one-time-fee/
 
Which sets up an ad hoc network.. I was wondering if that might work?
 
You see.... if you use a transportable rig...... you may as well be able to use it in your car.

I think you mean stream from Mac to iPad right?
24/192, is possible even if not supported, I've tested it in configs exposed in the thread dedicated to 24 bit-perfect streaming to iDevices (BTW updated lately with new options).
 
I've a car too and I'm interesting in any portable configs, but battery powered setups are portable anywhere so useful for cars too.
What's easier with cars is that they could provide power to any device with a simple adapter/power converter.
For car I'd go with Western Digital My Live Book (up to 3TB storage capacity) which works without internet, has NAS and DLNA capability, but it's not battery powered.

 

[mikemercer]

I got the HRT Headstreamer and their host mode adapter (basically a CCK).
It works splendidly with my iPad2!!!!
 
Here's a link to a picture of it in action:
http://sonicsatori.tumblr.com/post/30860204648/this-thing-sounds-amazing-w-my-ipad-hrt
 
It runs off the iPad battery this way, but it lasted for hours the other night NO PROBLEM

 

[grokit]

What's the difference between the host mode adapter and the Apple CCK?

 

[Thraex]

Quote:
Great!
Second known 24 bit DAC/Amp combo without CCK, Sony PHA-1 is the other.
HDMI Streamer is interesting too with iPad HDMI adapter

 

[whodiini]

Quote:

I got the HRT Headstreamer and their host mode adapter (basically a CCK).
It works splendidly with my iPad2!!!!
 
Here's a link to a picture of it in action:
http://sonicsatori.tumblr.com/post/30860204648/this-thing-sounds-amazing-w-my-ipad-hrt
 
It runs off the iPad battery this way, but it lasted for hours the other night NO PROBLEM

what ios version are you running?  the latest version 5 restricts current to 20 mA and the HRT uses 200mA, so I dont see how it will run without external power.

 

[Golden Ears]

Quote:

I think you mean stream from Mac to iPad right?
24/192, is possible even if not supported, I've tested it in configs exposed in the thread dedicated to 24 bit-perfect streaming to iDevices (BTW updated lately with new options).
 
I've a car too and I'm interesting in any portable configs, but battery powered setups are portable anywhere so useful for cars too.
What's easier with cars is that they could provide power to any device with a simple adapter/power converter.
For car I'd go with Western Digital My Live Book (up to 3TB storage capacity) which works without internet, has NAS and DLNA capability, but it's not battery powered.

Where are you located?? You should hear my car. There are issue in a  car with ground loops and such- but being able to use optical cables helps.
 
I have a 512gb SSD that I transplanted from a  Macbook Pro into a G-drive Mini (making it twice as much storage as there 256gb SSD) in a  tiny case. it is bus powered off of firewire/thunderbolt. Or off of USB.
 
The Apogee Mini DAC works from 6-14Vots DC! So it is perfect for the car. And when you get to work you pop it in a  bag and bring it to your desk...where you just leave your power supply plugged in.
 
I run Pure Music/itunes/apogee mini dac/Nkamichi TP-1200MK2 special shop/McIntosh 5 way 4 channel EQ and Crossover/6 band 4 channel McIntosh Parametric EQ/McIntosh MC4000m 6 channel 1000 watts +McIntosh 440M 6 channel 400 watts + (2) McIntosh 443M 300 watt mono blocks- into Scan Speak 12M 4.4 inch Revelator Midrange, and  Neodymium tweeters, and SB Acoustics 10 Inch flat subs wired with Analysis Plus speaker cable, + MIT Matrix interconnect.  I wrap the system in an E500 Mercedes (1994). Why so much wattage?? Well with first few watts of class A/B amplification it sounds like class A.  So you have to overkill in wattage to get that purity.  And McIntosh Amps S/N ratio is so good... you can get away with it.
 
It is awesome. I would never guess you could ever get sound like this in a car..it beats 95% of $30,000 home systems.
 
I'm selling that 512 SSD for $800 in the G-Drive Mini case if anyone wants it. I need a new computer more than a Drive.
 
Not a bad deal since the  256Gb is $1300.
 
http://www.vartotechnologies.com/G_DRIVE_mini_SSD_256GB_FireWire_USB_2_0_p/gdm4%20256.htm
 
Of course if there is a better DAC available with coaxial, Optical, AES/EBU, and USB or firewire inputs..I would switch..