[RishiGuru]

I also have a V35 (also running Android 10) that plays all my DSD files just fine via LG's own music player and via UAPP.

Well then LG V35 seems to be the only odd exception supporting DSD/DoP over Android 10. Please note V35 is a very rare device with very limited regional availability.

LG G6, G7, G8, G8X, V30, V35, V40, V50 all came powered with same ESS ES9218P SABRE audio chip better known as LG QuadDAC.

The very next iteration of V35, the V40 dropped DSD/DoP support after Android 10 update. Why V35 didn't is very strange to me but at the same time is a welcome news to audio lovers.

(BTW, the DACs are different - the V60 uses the ES9219 chip.)

Yeah, V60 has this ESS ES9219, but I do NOT consider it to be an upgrade over ES9218P.

V60 Cons:

More than double the output impedance of the V35.

I think the measured output impedance of headphone jack has more to do with audio tuning house in question rather than hardware. Long time back I went to a Korean website, I don't remember the name now and they were using very high end gear to objectively measure the headphone audio performance of LG QuadDAC model's. I just stored some measurements numbers from there in my Cloud.

The audio measurement gear in question was Audio Precision APX-555. Below are their measured headphone output impedences (lower is better):

2017
------
LG G6 -> ES9218P -> 1.57 ohms
LG V30 -> ES9218P -> 1.10 ohms

2018
-------
LG G7 -> ES9218P -> 1.10 ohms
LG V40 -> ES9218P -> 1.60 ohms

2019
------
LG G8 -> ES9218P -> 1.07 ohms
LG V50 -> ES9218P -> 1.64 ohms
LG G8X -> ES9218P -> 1.55 ohms


First, Bang & Olufsen (B&O) tuned the ES9218P on G6 and improved it further on V30 with an output impedence of 1.10. Then B&O left and LG continued with G7 keeping the high standards.

Meridian Audio then joined and tuned V40 and it fell down to 1.60. This around 1.60 ohms traditon continued with other two models V50 & G8X tuned by Meridian. I highly doubt G8's QuadDAC was tuned by Meridian (just click the link below and you won't found G8) and was rather tuned by LG just like G7, hence a similar value of 1.07.

https://www.meridian-audio.com/about-meridian/meridian-partnerships/lg-mobile/

All models under 32 ohms load produced around 0.4 Vrms, under line out around 1 Vrms and with 300 ohms load around 2 Vrms.

In the end the values are authentic from the website, but the reasoning is hypothetical from my side, so I may be wrong.

 

[Skullar]

2.0ohm should not be that bad though. and really should not affect tonality to any iems apart from maybe most sensitive BA setups.
Yes it could be better for a SE i agree. But at the end of a day its a phone lol

 

[RishiGuru]

2.0ohm should not be that bad though. and really should not affect tonality to any iems apart from maybe most sensitive BA setups.
Yes it could be better for a SE i agree. But at the end of a day its a phone lol

I agree.

In the end both my LG V30+ & G8X with different output impedance sound equally good albeit completely different sound signatures.

An analogy will be V30+ sounds more like acoustic guitar where as G8X is like an electric guitar.

 

[csglinux]

I think the measured output impedance of headphone jack has more to do with audio tuning house in question rather than hardware. Long time back I went to a Korean website, I don't remember the name now and they were using very high end gear to objectively measure the headphone audio performance of LG QuadDAC model's. I just stored some measurements numbers from there in my Cloud.

The audio measurement gear in question was Audio Precision APX-555. Below are their measured headphone output impedences (lower is better):

2017
------
LG G6 -> ES9218P -> 1.57 ohms
LG V30 -> ES9218P -> 1.10 ohms

2018
-------
LG G7 -> ES9218P -> 1.10 ohms
LG V40 -> ES9218P -> 1.60 ohms

2019
------
LG G8 -> ES9218P -> 1.07 ohms
LG V50 -> ES9218P -> 1.64 ohms
LG G8X -> ES9218P -> 1.55 ohms

I would have put my money on changes due to hardware only, but my buddy at HypetheSonics knows more about this than I do and he thinks it's theoretically possible for output impedance to change as a result of programmable registers controlling negative amplifier feedback. Whether that's happening here, I have no idea. @Dannemand is headfi's resident Android/LG-software expert. He might be able to shed some light on this? @Dannemand had previously suggested one other possibility to me concerning the V35 measurements, which is unit variance. I saw something related to that here in ESS's V60 press release:

http://www.esstech.com/index.php/en...generation-headphone-soc-quad-dac-technology/

This was the quote:

The new features in the ES9219 offer substantial audio benefits for V60 users, including the brand-new proprietary THD solution, to significantly reduce variation across devices without the need for manual custom tuning achieving -114 dB THD+N at 1.0Vrms into 100k Ohm. This ensures that every V60 will have the best possible performance.

So if you find the V60's DAC to be worse than previous LG-device DACs, at least it will be more consistently worse
I know that for most people a 2 Ohm z-out is still ok; for some of my headphones, it's not The V60 is still an awesome phone (how many choices do we have these days if we want a 3.5 mm jack?) but I would certainly agree that LG's implementation of the ES9129 isn't necessarily a net upgrade over their previous ES9128P devices.

 

[RishiGuru]

I would have put my money on changes due to hardware only, but my buddy at HypetheSonics knows more about this than I do and he thinks it's theoretically possible for output impedance to change as a result of programmable registers controlling negative amplifier feedback.
...

I feel the same, different audio tuning houses are tuning the same ESS ES9218P SABRE differently. This causes the headphone jack output impedance to change dramatically. It can be due to programmable registers controlling negative amplifier feedback of the chip. This may be the very reason why B&O tuned handsets are registering around 1.10 ohms where as that of Meridian Audio is around 1.60 ohms.

I saw something related to that here in ESS's V60 press release:

http://www.esstech.com/index.php/en...generation-headphone-soc-quad-dac-technology/

This was the quote:

The new features in the ES9219 offer substantial audio benefits for V60 users, including the brand-new proprietary THD solution, to significantly reduce variation across devices without the need for manual custom tuning achieving -114 dB THD+N at 1.0Vrms into 100k Ohm. This ensures that every V60 will have the best possible performance.

I feel ES9219 is born out of necessity, with LG Mobile's new management taking some clear decisions to change the grim quarterly balance sheets. Being a music lover it pains me to say, the analog audio enthusiasm LG showed between 2016 to 2020 which led to the birth of ES9218P is now gone. The acclaimed feature of revered audio quality did not save the sinking ship that LG Mobile had become as of 2020, so the new management must have said **** the audiophiles.

Under the new leadership, more emphasis is now layed on phone design which gave to the birth of LG Velvet devoid of QuadDAC. Second is innovation, in-order to draw the crowd and grab headlines. Enter swiveling LG Wing without headphone jack. Believe me when I say, now they are seeing ray of hope and the financial condition is gradually improving. The entire Korean R&D team renowned for making their G & V series models will now concentrate in ground breading concepts as we are hearing rumors of a rollable LG phone coming soon.Every other model from Velvet all the way down will be given contract to third part ODMs.

So now we can have only one LG smartphone annually featuring QuadDAC. And LG must have said to ESS to create a cut down version of previous ES9218P, so as to reduce BOM cost or we are cutting the ties. And hey, we are not going to pour any more money on audio tuning houses to do their custom tuning, so just make something so we do not have to tune at all. Enter ES9219 on V60.

A marketing statement like this can often be argued both ways.

 

[Dannemand]

@Dannemand is headfi's resident Android/LG-software expert. He might be able to shed some light on this?

There may have been a time

But I am far behind now, as I never upgraded from V30. So I have no firsthand experience with the newer models nor with Android 10.

I did delve into the 9218p codec source of various models, including V30, V35, V40, G7 and G8. And as I posted in other threads, the biggest difference was between V30 and ALL the other models. There the main difference I saw that could impact sound quality was that of different THD compensation parameters. This is how ESS chips compensate for variations in surrounding circuitry. Check the following quote from the ES9038Q2M data sheet (ESS keeps data sheets secret, and I couldn't find the 9218p data sheet):

"Custom sound signature is supported via a fully programmable FIR filter with 7 presets. Residual distortion from suboptimal PCB components and layout can be minimized using ES9038Q2M’s unique THD compensation circuit, while chip-to-chip gain variation is minimized via a built-in auto gain calibration circuit."

It is also how OEMs work around the infamous IMD hump, something ESS does NOT mention in their data sheet

9218p has an integrated OpAmp, and since the DAC chip is current-out, it must include an I/V stage. Output stages from I-out DACs are more involved than ones from V-out DACs (such as AKM chips prior to AK4499). Considering how much difference output stages can affect in a DAC, it stands to reason that parameters from a programmable OpAmp with I/V could affect it quite a bit.

So I believe the significant differences in measurements (as shown by @csglinux) and in perceived sound signature (as described by @RishiGuru) must be down to differences in THD compensation programming AND (of course) the actual differences in surrounding circuitry.

And yes, I believe unit variance could be a significant factor as well. It isn't without reason that audio manufacturers often select golden units to be sent to reviewers...

Digital Filters were the same for the various LG models which I studied.

I think you guys are spot on about the changes in V60 and 9219: LG (which must have been ESS' largest 9218p customer by far) is looking to cut costs, seeing that their audiophile bet hasn't paid off. That includes a DAC chip with easier compensation and less outlay to companies like B&O and Meridian. It also includes forgoing MQA fees. Maybe MQA Ltd gave them a free ride while they were still looking for MQA adoption, and now that more standalone DAC's include MQA they don't need LG as much anymore.

V35 definitely stands out as THE audiophile LG phone for the ages: With the same beloved size and form factor as the V30, but 6GB RAM and SD845, official Android 10 update but WITHOUT loss of DSD support as in other models, and still with MQA onboard. And now the significantly better measurements than other models, as shown by csglinux on hypethesonics.com.

I kick myself for missing it during the summer 2019 sale when Cricket unloaded AT&T's inventory of unlocked V35 for $150 (as I recall).

 

[boodi]

I will seel my v35 soon as I much prefer the v40 / 50 Meridian tuning ( wonder if v60 have same tuning )

 

[musicday]

LG will soon stop making mobile phones. And I was looking forward to V70.

 

[vanhalen26]

This is a bit confusing. I have the opportunity to upgrade my LG G7 for an LG G8X.

I listen to Tidal MQAs on UAPP.

My takeaway is stick with the G7 as the G8X didn’t have the capability or possibly licensing included. Is that correct?

I’ll switch back to listening to MQAs on Tidal when they fix the android 10 issue.

Thanks for the help!

 

[joshnor713]

LG will soon stop making mobile phones. And I was looking forward to V70.

They said not gonna happen right away, so V70 probably still incoming. I'm mostly concerned if they're gonna keep the headphone jack and hifi DAC.

 

[musicday]

They said not gonna happen right away, so V70 probably still incoming. I'm mostly concerned if they're gonna keep the headphone jack and hifi DAC.

They are in talks to sell the mobile decision to a Vietnamese company.

 

[scottm18]

V35 definitely stands out as THE audiophile LG phone for the ages: With the same beloved size and form factor as the V30, but 6GB RAM and SD845, official Android 10 update but WITHOUT loss of DSD support as in other models, and still with MQA onboard. And now the significantly better measurements than other models, as shown by csglinux on hypethesonics.com.

Android 10 upgrades/models didn't kill DSD they just now convert to PCM (no native playback) so they may as well killed it. I have a V40 I'm trying everything in the world to keep on Android 9 but my carrier keeps wanting to update it to infernal 10. I also have a coveted unlocked B&O V30S that works on any carrier and my recent comparisons are that it sounds the best of the bunch by quite a long shot. At least with the sublime Final Audio Sonorous X headphones anyway!

 

[Dannemand]

V35 definitely stands out as THE audiophile LG phone for the ages: With the same beloved size and form factor as the V30, but 6GB RAM and SD845, official Android 10 update but WITHOUT loss of DSD support as in other models, and still with MQA onboard. And now the significantly better measurements than other models, as shown by csglinux on hypethesonics.com.

Android 10 upgrades/models didn't kill DSD they just now convert to PCM (no native playback) so they may as well killed it. I have a V40 I'm trying everything in the world to keep on Android 9 but my carrier keeps wanting to update it to infernal 10. I also have a coveted unlocked B&O V30S that works on any carrier and my recent comparisons are that it sounds the best of the bunch by quite a long shot. At least with the sublime Final Audio Sonorous X headphones anyway!

We're on the same page. I would say DSD support is lost when there is neither native DSD nor DoP. Of course you can play anything through transcoding, but converting DSD to PCM before sending it to a Delta-Sigma DAC, which then up-samples and converts back to 1-bit format... hell, that's just wrong, when the DAC has a native DSD mode to bypass all that.


Regarding your V30S sounding best of them all, I am wondering if it has significantly changed board layout from V30, and if that may be the reason. V30S did come out not much earlier than the V35, which measured so phenomenally on hypethesonics.com, as mentioned by @csglinux. It's a beautiful phone you got there!

 

[vanhalen26]

How does the sound quality of these phone series of players compare to the portable players in the $600ish range?

 

[Dannemand]

This is a bit confusing. I have the opportunity to upgrade my LG G7 for an LG G8X.

I listen to Tidal MQAs on UAPP.

My takeaway is stick with the G7 as the G8X didn’t have the capability or possibly licensing included. Is that correct?

I’ll switch back to listening to MQAs on Tidal when they fix the android 10 issue.

Thanks for the help!

I don't think there is an issue with MQA on Android 10. But V60 jut doesn't have it because LG pulled MQA, presumably for cost reasons. Maybe MQA Ltd decided to charge for it where they had provided it free on earlier LG phones.

As you you know there IS a problem with MQA when using the Tidal app, which has been present since February last year. But that is a completely different issue, best solved by using UAPP instead. Alternatively roll back to Tidal app version 2.21.0, again from February 2020.