LG V30

[chortya]

I wish I got paid a dollar for each time I was a cynical unbeliever I've never owned any of the G-series LG phones, but the G8 again has the exact same ESS 9218P DAC chipset. Unless we were talking about FPGA DACs, I don't know how much better THD and SNR could get via software tweaks alone. But I'd definitely be interested to see any links to measurements of the G8, if you have them?

BTW, by "symmetric output", do you mean balanced output?

Yes, sorry German term getting into the way. Balanced output is what clearly differentiates the DAPs currently but here I would switch on my sceptical mode saying that only high impedance headphones can profit rom it. It changes the output for IEMs but not necessarily improves the sound quality.

 

[csglinux]

Yes, sorry German term getting into the way. Balanced output is what clearly differentiates the DAPs currently but here I would switch on my sceptical mode saying that only high impedance headphones can profit rom it. It changes the output for IEMs but not necessarily improves the sound quality.

Ich stimme diesen symmetrischen Kabeln zu The extra 0.5 dB channel separation is irrelevant and the extra power usually not needed for IEMs.

I don't know much about the specs of those Sony DAPs (a brief Google showed up nothing), but I do have access to many of these models via TSAV here in LA. There's a good chance Jason would let me measure a bunch of them. Probably won't happen for a few weeks, but if I get around to it I'll post the results (probably in another thread) and send you a pm.

 

[TooPoorForHiFi]

Are there any Alternative to the UAPP bit perfect App?

 

[gimpy]

Are there any Alternative to the UAPP bit perfect App?

Not sure exactly what you mean? Maybe HF Player by Onkyo?

 

[artpiggo]

Are there any Alternative to the UAPP bit perfect App?

Neutron

 

[Dannemand]

Thanks for clarifying @Dannemand! BTW, can you explain, in terms that very stupid people would understand, what the effect of the harmonic compensation is and why that wouldn't show up in FR measurements? Not that I need that explaining to me of course,... just in case some very stupid people are reading this

Frak if I know! I thought you were the expert on such things

I am merely quoting from the source code written by ESS engineers (which is why I quoted "harmonic compensation"). And they don't come with documentation. The only clues we get are the names of variables (aux_harmonic_comp_left, aux_harmonic_comp_right etc) and the values of these variables.

All I meant to say by including them in my last post, was that there are many differences between the ESS driver in the firmware for V30 and V40, several of which might affect FR or THD or IMD. One example is these variables I quoted, which are programmed into DAC registers after switching into a given gain mode (Normal, Aux, Advanced) presumably/apparently to "compensate" for different "harmonic" responses of the different modes. Again, that might explain some of the differences reported between V40 and V30 (including the small differences in your measurements).

And there are many other such differences in the drivers. But interestingly, not the Digital Filters, which are identical between V30 and V40.

As it turns out, I do have some more speculation on the effects of "harmonic compensation" which I'll try and describe later. It's bedtime here now!

I finally got to spent a little more time studying the source code for the V30 ESS driver, with a particular eye on finding out about the "harmonic compensation" referenced in the driver. It is actually "THD Compensation". Apparently ESS DACs are known to have a so-called "THD Hump" on their IMD curve.

It turns out everybody knew that, except me. Try googling ESS Hump and you'll find this dissertation, among many others. If my supercentenarian grandmother hand't died a couple years ago, I would have asked her about it and saved myself a lot of time dissecting that driver source code.

In short, ESS DACs have features to compensate for this hump. The registers used to program it are labelled "THD Compensation". Different values are used for THD Compensation depending on the power mode (Normal, Aux, Advanced) -- hence the variables I quoted in my post here. I have to assume if they didn't compensate, the hump would be visible on @csglinux' IMD curves.

The context for my original quote was pointing out that this compensation varies between V40 and V30 (with G7 and V35 identical to V40). I don't know why that would be (since it's the same DAC) or if it might account for the different tuning that LG is claiming and which some users are hearing. I kind of think other things have to go into such tuning.

Now, would the experts here please come forward with some insight, before I make a fool of myself

 

[mochill]

Getting a v30+ in 2 days , what is everyone thought about it. I'm coming from the Classic v10B-)

 

[csglinux]

I finally got to spent a little more time studying the source code for the V30 ESS driver, with a particular eye on finding out about the "harmonic compensation" referenced in the driver. It is actually "THD Compensation". Apparently ESS DACs are known to have a so-called "THD Hump" on their IMD curve.

It turns out everybody knew that, except me. Try googling ESS Hump and you'll find this dissertation, among many others. If my supercentenarian grandmother hand't died a couple years ago, I would have asked her about it and saved myself a lot of time dissecting that driver source code.

In short, ESS DACs have features to compensate for this hump. The registers used to program it are labelled "THD Compensation". Different values are used for THD Compensation depending on the power mode (Normal, Aux, Advanced) -- hence the variables I quoted in my post here. I have to assume if they didn't compensate, the hump would be visible on @csglinux' IMD curves.

The context for my original quote was pointing out that this compensation varies between V40 and V30 (with G7 and V35 identical to V40). I don't know why that would be (since it's the same DAC) or if it might account for the different tuning that LG is claiming and which some users are hearing. I kind of think other things have to go into such tuning.

Now, would the experts here please come forward with some insight, before I make a fool of myself

Nice detective work @Dannemand I also found this paper: https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/777066

I still have this question which is maybe more philosophical than technical... DAPs are expected to have low harmonic distortion (users would complain otherwise); and they're expected to have completely flat amplitude vs frequency response (again, there'd be complaints otherwise). I doubt "Tuning by Meridian" is simply clever compensation to reduce THD, because a shift from 106 to 108 dB below full scale wouldn't be audible to anybody but Captain Marvel. There's possibly something else going on beyond the sticker on the box. I'm going to reach out to Meridian. On the off-chance they tell me anything, I will post back here with their response.

 

[Alanaudio]

As a owner of V30 for 1 years, I suggest anyone who are interested in this phone because of the DAC feature to purchase Nextdrive SpectraX instead. It is just way better than V30 in audio output performance and you don't have to deal with that stupid up-sampling distortion and stupid un-controllable output power. As a phone itself, I think V30/V40/G7 are behind its main competitors like Oneplus 6T(7 soon)/S10e/Huawei Mate20 pro or whatever phones in this price range.

 

[csglinux]

As a owner of V30 for 1 years, I suggest anyone who are interested in this phone because of the DAC feature to purchase Nextdrive SpectraX instead. It is just way better than V30 in audio output performance and you don't have to deal with that stupid up-sampling distortion and stupid un-controllable output power.

I don't have any personal experience with this particular dongle, but I doubt that comment is correct. Amirm has measured this device - you can check out his giant comparison SINAD (signal over total noise and distortion) graph here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...w-and-measurements-of-spectra-x-dac-amp.6861/

He's not measured the V30, but the G7 uses the same DAC/amp as the V30 and V40 (which, in my experience, both measure very similarly).

I agree with you about the upsampling issue. It's frustrating that LG doesn't even seem aware that there's a problem. (In most cases there's a work-around though!) I'm not a fan of dongles to begin with, and carrying one this size would be a far bigger annoyance to me than the up-sampling.

 

[stuck limo]

As a owner of V30 for 1 years, I suggest anyone who are interested in this phone because of the DAC feature to purchase Nextdrive SpectraX instead. It is just way better than V30 in audio output performance and you don't have to deal with that stupid up-sampling distortion and stupid un-controllable output power. As a phone itself, I think V30/V40/G7 are behind its main competitors like Oneplus 6T(7 soon)/S10e/Huawei Mate20 pro or whatever phones in this price range.

Can you describe the differences in audio quality between the two?

 

[TooPoorForHiFi]

Maybe for a heavy user but I think the V30 is fine as a phone, than again I've been using the Galaxy S5 since release. If I detach myself from the V30 it'll be the ES100 route. Having a Dongle is pretty damn annoying for me at least.

 

[Alanaudio]

Can you describe the differences in audio quality between the two?

If you use V30 with SpectraX you will be disappointed since that background noise even exists while doing digital output(USB-C). Sure certain App can fix that but the App itself is just buggy as hell and some of them do not support streaming music service like Tidal/Spotify which is the main reason why we use the phone as the source. The difference in audio quality is huge. When you use the SpectraX with V30, even the noise exist but you can feel the dynamic and resolution are much better. If you use SpectraX with any laptop or desktop, the sound is just so good which does not sound like coming from a dongle. I was not impressed with the A&K SE100 I purchased recently because the sound of SpectraX with a laptop has more dynamic but just a little bit lack of resolution compared to SE100.

 

[stuck limo]

If you use V30 with SpectraX you will be disappointed since that background noise even exists while doing digital output(USB-C). Sure certain App can fix that but the App itself is just buggy as hell and some of them do not support streaming music service like Tidal/Spotify which is the main reason why we use the phone as the source. The difference in audio quality is huge. When you use the SpectraX with V30, even the noise exist but you can feel the dynamic and resolution are much better. If you use SpectraX with any laptop or desktop, the sound is just so good which does not sound like coming from a dongle. I was not impressed with the A&K SE100 I purchased recently because the sound of SpectraX with a laptop has more dynamic but just a little bit lack of resolution compared to SE100.

My buddy wants to set up an audiophile system for his new house, and runs a Mac. I'm sure his budget is constrained after buying a house/remodel, so that's why I'm curious to find out his various options for external DACs within *a* price range, *assuming* we went for external instead of on-board.

 

[Alanaudio]

I don't have any personal experience with this particular dongle, but I doubt that comment is correct. Amirm has measured this device - you can check out his giant comparison SINAD (signal over total noise and distortion) graph here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...w-and-measurements-of-spectra-x-dac-amp.6861/

He's not measured the V30, but the G7 uses the same DAC/amp as the V30 and V40 (which, in my experience, both measure very similarly).

I agree with you about the upsampling issue. It's frustrating that LG doesn't even seem aware that there's a problem. (In most cases there's a work-around though!) I'm not a fan of dongles to begin with, and carrying one this size would be a far bigger annoyance to me than the up-sampling.

The thing is that dongle already sounds better than V30 when paring with V30. While paring with laptop or desktop the sound quality is just not the same level compared to V30 since the output power increased because of the higher output current from the USB port.