[oneula]

anyone know how the V30 stacks up sound wise to either the Zishan DSD AK4497EQ or the Revamp Acoustics Nuansa P1?

 

[brofeelgood]

One last question for today... Any Shanling M0 users out there? I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on SQ. This isn't definitive (I don't think there's ever a way of covering all possible bases), but from the A/B tests I've done so far using HD800S, Utopia, SE846 and Xelentos with my V30 only on the short filter and normal preset and M0 only on the "Corrected min. Fast" filter, I'd give a slight edge to the M0. It maybe because the M0 has less other sources of noise (not having to handle an entire Android system with WiFi, cellular, etc.), or maybe just because of the differences in filters. I read a rather cynical comment about the V30's filters - that they were intentionally designed to make the V30 sound different, to ensure everybody would notice the effect of switching on the HiFi DAC. (By contrast, filters on many other DACs can be fairly subtle and require good high-frequency hearing to notice any differences.) The M0 is stuffed full of features - you can even use it as an external DAC if you'd like to send your V30 digital output through a ES9128p DAC Also, it does two-way bluetooth with LDAC - which is the best Bluetooth SQ I've yet heard. It's sold by MusicTeck and TSAV in the US for $99, which - for me - makes this thing my all-time top recommendation for value-for-money audio.

I've had the M0 for a month or so. It's amazing what you can get out of this tiny device and for just ninety odd dollars. SQ wise, it has a somewhat identical signature to the V30. I like them both, but if I had to pick one, I'd say the M0 edges out the V30 by the tiniest of margins. The M0 is great to have and use, if your preferred approach is to turn it on and forget the rest. However, if you like to fiddle around all the time (like me), e.g. skip tracks, view meta info, search for and play songs by a particular album artist or whatever, then you'll definitely be better off with the ease of use and slickness that you can only find in a mobile phone app (UAPP in my case) running on a big nice screen (V30+).

M0 pros: unassuming size (1.5 inch x 1.5 inch x 0.5 inch thick); selectable gain (aye, screw 'em adapters to trigger a different mode); same great audio quality.

M0 cons: screen is too small, resulting in way too much scrolling; mediocre interface design.

M0, seen here with an Etymotic ER4XR::

 

[kdphan]

M0 and V30

They're about just the same in terms of SQ for me.

I'll use the M0 if I just want to listen to music on the SD card and not wanting to mess with my phone.

V30 if I want to use Tidal through UAPP.

 

[germanium]

I have the Audio Technica M50X. They are not perfect but actually quite reasonably balanced. only slight smooth bass boost as well as moderate treble emphasis as well as some emphasis in the upper midband which affects depth perception which you will find on most closed headphones due to reflections of the back wall of the driver housing compromise the sound.

The most accurate earphones I have are the Etymotic Research ER4P's which are incredibly accurate in live feed situations which I have tested them in. The M50x's have a very flat impedance curve so they work well in just about any matchup to headphone amp output impedance as the sound will not radically change no matter the amp. The ER4P's actually are designed to work better with high source impedances. All this being said there is a reason that the M50X's are frequently used in studios for monitoring as they do have a reasonably balanced sound. Most deviations from flat are quite mild. My speakers at home do not sound radically different than the M50X's do & these are quite flat sounding down to 18Hz & usable to 16Hz due to my modifications. The ER4P's are definitely not my favorite casual listening phone though and neither is the M50X. My current fave warts & all is my modified Sennheiser HD579's

 

[lpfbs]

My current fave warts & all is my modified Sennheiser HD579's

Hey. What do you mean by 'modified'?

Those 579 are quite cheap, i can get them for 100€ new.

 

[germanium]

Hey. What do you mean by 'modified'?

Those 579 are quite cheap, i can get them for 100€ new.

I removed some black foam tape from the inside as well as the acoustic silk lining & plastic frame that held the silk in place. I also cut away the silver plastic tang that has the sennheiser logo on it to create an unimpeded escape for sound coming out of the back side of the driver. This largely eliminates internal reflections & improves the sense of spaciousness in the recordings.

On the surface the sound seem less detail oriented but gains immensely in spaciousness. Sound in the midrange is a little less forward. The slight mid bass-upper bass boost remains as well as the treble boost at around 6-7KHz as it was with them stock. High treble seems a little more detailed than stock perhaps due to the practical elimination of reflections coming from behind the driver.

 

[oneula]

anyone use either the Audioquest Night Hawk or Night Owl from the V30?

 

[all999]

anyone use either the Audioquest Night Hawk or Night Owl from the V30?

Nighthawk Carbon and enjoying it. On AUX mode.

 

[germanium]

I would like to chime in on how the quad DAC works at different impedance settings as some people are giving false information saying that all DAC's are always used when Hi-Fi DAC is turned on.

The DAC's are wired in parallel & the output from these DAC's are current mode, not voltage mode. Current to voltage conversion takes place at the headphone amp. This being said as DAC's are added current output total is added. Each DAC in the quad DAC has a maximum current available at its output that is 1/4 the total available current that all 4 DAC's can provide. At low impedance setting only 1 DAC is used which can only provide one quarter the max current & since the current to voltage conversion is done by the headphone amp 1/4 the current equals 1/4 the max voltage output to headphones. As you move to Aux mode one DAC is added so now you have 2 DAC's available hence doubling the current available to the input of the headphone amp & since it acts as a current to voltage converter this doubles the voltage output providing 6db of gain over using a single DAC. High impedance mode adds the rest of the DAC's doubling the current output yet again thus doubling the output voltage of the headphone amp yet again thus providing a total of 12db of gain over the Low impedance mode or 6db of gain over the Aux mode

 

[alota]

thanks but i´m always with my doubt. one dac provides left and right? so in reality this quad dac is eight mono dac?

 

[germanium]

thanks but i´m always with my doubt. one dac provides left and right? so in reality this quad dac is eight mono dac?

Actually you could consider it as having 16 mono DAC's as each DAC has a +&- output as opposed to just having a + output as virtually all early DAC's had. Each output for each channel has it's own DAC so the plus output has a DAC & the minus has it's own DAC so a stereo DAC with balanced outputs actually has 4 DAC's.

Having balanced outputs have helped to eliminate "motor boating" idle tones that early delta sigma DAC's were prone to by having the idle tones present in both outputs be in phase but the output signal being out of phase the idle tones were cancelled through common mode rejection but the audio signal being out of phase would be amplified. This made it possible to bring delta sigma DAC's up to a very high level of performance in terms of signal to noise levels making them competitive to 24 bit ladder type DAC's at a lower cost.

Early delta sigma designs which were not balanced output would mute the output at the final output stage whenever no signal was present to prevent the idle tones from escaping. These mute circuits would often cause popping noises when the muted & unmuted the output. This was due to D.C. offset at the output of the final stage. No such muting circuits are required on DAC's with balanced outputs as the idle tones are eliminated, only random noise is left which is at or very near the thermal noise of the output circuit itself.

 

[csglinux]

I would like to chime in on how the quad DAC works at different impedance settings as some people are giving false information saying that all DAC's are always used when Hi-Fi DAC is turned on.

The DAC's are wired in parallel & the output from these DAC's are current mode, not voltage mode. Current to voltage conversion takes place at the headphone amp. This being said as DAC's are added current output total is added. Each DAC in the quad DAC has a maximum current available at its output that is 1/4 the total available current that all 4 DAC's can provide. At low impedance setting only 1 DAC is used which can only provide one quarter the max current & since the current to voltage conversion is done by the headphone amp 1/4 the current equals 1/4 the max voltage output to headphones. As you move to Aux mode one DAC is added so now you have 2 DAC's available hence doubling the current available to the input of the headphone amp & since it acts as a current to voltage converter this doubles the voltage output providing 6db of gain over using a single DAC. High impedance mode adds the rest of the DAC's doubling the current output yet again thus doubling the output voltage of the headphone amp yet again thus providing a total of 12db of gain over the Low impedance mode or 6db of gain over the Aux mode

I'm not disputing the math, but is this just speculation or do you have a source for this information? I.e., do you have a reference that confirms the DAC operates the way you've specified as a function of impedance? The concern here is that if the implementation were as you described (rather than simply doubling output voltage from normal device -> aux -> high impedance), the lower output gain mode(s) wouldn't benefit from the quad DAC - i.e., the SNR.would be lower. I've not (yet) seen any evidence of that.

I'd also be interested to hear thoughts from those with insider corporate knowledge of the ESS DAC operations in Shanling's M0. Or failing that, I'd be interested to hear more wild speculation The M0 uses the same quad DAC and allows you to set the output gain manually (L or H).

 

[germanium]

I'm not disputing the math, but is this just speculation or do you have a source for this information? I.e., do you have a reference that confirms the DAC operates the way you've specified as a function of impedance? The concern here is that if the implementation were as you described (rather than simply doubling output voltage from normal device -> aux -> high impedance), the lower output gain mode(s) wouldn't benefit from the quad DAC - i.e., the SNR.would be lower. I've not (yet) seen any evidence of that.

I'd also be interested to hear thoughts from those with insider corporate knowledge of the ESS DAC operations in Shanling's M0. Or failing that, I'd be interested to hear more wild speculation The M0 uses the same quad DAC and allows you to set the output gain manually (L or H).

Here are a couple of links.
https://th3porhani.blogspot.com/2016/09/what-is-lg-v20s-quad-dac-and-how-does.html
http://www.ubergizmo.com/articles/lg-v20-quad-dac-how-it-works/

Hope this helps

The reason that you may not see improvements in noise are multi fold but a couple are
1. Output may have been limited to 16 bit due to file & or program used to test.
2. thermal noise of the headphone amp may be higher than the worst case scenario provided be the DAC's themselves

 

[Adide]

Has anyone had any success running Neutralizer along with Tidal?

I've have tried it with Tidal app and it doesn't seem to have an effect on tonality but it did something to the gain as it lowered the volume a bit when activated.
Streaming Tidal through UAPP Tidal plugin (so not through the native app) - Neutralizer doesn't do anything at all, zero effect. Tried both drivers in UAPP and no luck.

On the other hand, Neutralizer works as intended with Youtube for instance.

Probably the presence of two DACs is making Neutralizer having a hard time.
Maybe someone else did it before and already discovered the settings that would make it work.

Cheers.

 

[csglinux]

Here are a couple of links.
https://th3porhani.blogspot.com/2016/09/what-is-lg-v20s-quad-dac-and-how-does.html
http://www.ubergizmo.com/articles/lg-v20-quad-dac-how-it-works/

Hope this helps

The reason that you may not see improvements in noise are multi fold but a couple are
1. Output may have been limited to 16 bit due to file & or program used to test.
2. thermal noise of the headphone amp may be higher than the worst case scenario provided be the DAC's themselves

I'm aware of those two links. I've linked to that first article myself a couple of times in this thread. Even if you believe them (and the 2nd article has some blatant errors about how DACs work), 1) they relate to the V20, not the V30, and 2) they don't describe what you're claiming (number of DAC pipes = function of detected impedance). I'm not sure that yet more speculation is really helping here.