[MaloS]

There is also the whole subject of personal value, not even system value. Frankly we often find people overpaying for headphones just because things are rare now, look at k1000s often selling for 1200-1300 instead of the $1000 they originally cost when still in production. To some people they are worth that much money.
If something sounds just right for me, I am willing to overpay to get it, and that partly makes the idea of value itself questionable...

Also, how valuable is a high end setup without music that is recorded on par? I wouldn't want a maxed out k1000 setup to listen to majority of modern close-miced music (not all), since it is just not on par with the standards k1000 is designed to drive. With that music I think I could play very happily with just a SR325i and a small amp for it, but as it stands now, with music I listen to (jazz/classical/trance), a quality sound-staging and separating setup is much more rewarding, and hence more valuable to me. Here I would rather pay that money for hd600 + millet hybrid than sr-325i and RA-1, which would work out to be around the same amount of money.

 

[keyid]

Value is subjective, hard to judge before listening, and will most certainly change. A person's value judgement on an amp needs a fundamental level experience so he may compare. Only then will you know which degrees of value can you asses.

 

[dmk005]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellenback /img/forum/go_quote.gif Very interesting thread with a great deal of information to digest. I believe value to be such a subjective thing that it is very difficult if not impossible to make blanket statements about it. I think one of the most important points is that value depends on what is important to the buyer. i.e. One person who is very good at DIY would find value in a product that might not have great customer support as they could fix what might go wrong with the item. Another would find value in something that gives the best sound in a given price range with a good warranty in case of malfunction. And so on.

Well said. I believe value comes not in the short run but in the life cycle of ownership. The only reason we know Toyota's have good value is how long they last compared to other cars in the same class. In comparison, I struggle with assessing a value on a DAC because I see it more as a computer component and what happens to computer components over time? In one year, a new chip can come out and our DACs become obsolete. What is the resale value of a DAC with a 2 year old chip? That is a value travesty. Perhaps I would see much more value in paying more for a DAC when I knew the developer would provide upgrades instead of purchasing a new one. Amps/Headphones may be different different because as they age, they are generally able to deliver up to standard over and over again.

 

[porschemad911]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmk005 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well said. I believe value comes not in the short run but in the life cycle of ownership. The only reason we know Toyota's have good value is how long they last compared to other cars in the same class. In comparison, I struggle with assessing a value on a DAC because I see it more as a computer component and what happens to computer components over time? In one year, a new chip can come out and our DACs become obsolete. What is the resale value of a DAC with a 2 year old chip? That is a value travesty. Perhaps I would see much more value in paying more for a DAC when I knew the developer would provide upgrades instead of purchasing a new one. Amps/Headphones may be different different because as they age, they are generally able to deliver up to standard over and over again.

Actually, that's a very good points in favour of 'separates', when talking about a DAC and headphone amplifier combination.

For me personally, value = what I get out of a product. If the amplifier I selected is not as good as the next one for the same price that I never heard, yet I get years of enjoyment out of mine, how is that possibly poor value to me?

Unfortunately I have learnt the hard way that value does indeed come over time, and quick decisions to change impact it very, very negatively indeed. Although that statement's pretty coloured by the fact that last week I lost $8K on a car bought without careful thought. Not much in the big scheme of things that is life, but enough to sting.

 

[wnewport]

I get tired of the "This product for $$$ sounds like a $$$$ product." Every ****ing piece of equipment is said to sound more expensive than it is. I never take these reviews seriously. Unless specific models are compared, the value thing is meaningless.

 

[MaloS]

Lets try a reverse method of review. 'This piece of equipment sounds so good, that I am willing to pay 300 bucks for it instead of what I have now...oh wait, it costs 500'...

 

[wnewport]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaloS /img/forum/go_quote.gif Lets try a reverse method of review. 'This piece of equipment sounds so good, that I am willing to pay 300 bucks for it instead of what I have now...oh wait, it costs 500'...

Haha, I would much rather read Stereophile and other reviews who have adopted that style.

 

[greggf]

I think it was granodemostasa who said that perhaps things don't get better over time, they just get different.

I have yet to hear anything SUBSTANTIALLY better, FOR THE PRICE/value, than the 1990 Koss ESP electrostatics that are still in production today, the 1992 Melos SHA1 headphone amp, or the mid-1990's Sennheiser HD580 Jubilees. Or the regular early '90's HD580, for that matter.

There sure has been a lot, since then, that sounds slightly better or is more expensive. But mainly it has just sounded different.

 

[Mindless]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asr /img/forum/go_quote.gif Value is categorical. There are plenty of audio components be they headphones, amps, or sources, that have all been claimed as "best bang for buck!" - stuff like the KSC 75, or a Go-Vibe, or the Benchmark DAC1, etc. Except with this kind of stuff, there's such a huge price range you can't limit "value" to the entire possible price bracket - there are way too many components, and some of them are specially designed for one purpose or another. And price brackets are nearly infinite too. For example, some people might put the Gilmore Lite, EC/SS, and CanAmp in the same price bracket and the GS-1 in another because they're almost half its price - but that shouldn't imply those three are twice the value of the GS-1. If you resorted so all four are in the same <$1K bracket, that puts things in a different perspective. In amps specifically, I don't think anyone can say if one amp is the best "value" for <$1K - there are way too many amps of too many types, you just can't make a blanket statement like that. The Corda Opera might be a good value - I don't know, I haven't heard it. But no one can say it's a good value unless that person has done some comparison with similarly featured products at similar prices. Oh it could be said that it's a great <$1K amp, nothing wrong with saying something like that, but to say "OMG IT'S TEH BEST DAC/AMP UNDER $1K!!1!".... With respect to the specific amps that were mentioned, I'll just say it right now - I don't care what anyone says, they are not values nor are they "steals." They're amps in a certain price bracket and they fairly compete with each other, but they don't compete with certain higher-end amps.

Indeed, it is categorical, but more than anything it's subjective since alot of people will agree/disagree with the posts made here. Everyone has different understandings of value.

I may value a quiet walk while others don't. It's the same thing with this. I may value my $1100 DAC/amplifier Opera while others don't.

 

[ralphmoe]

I find it an interesting personal fact that I enjoyed the music
just as much 4 headphones ago. I don't love listening to say, George Benson's
fantastic guitar riffs through the AT-W5000's anymore than I did through the Senn PX-200's. Once the new toy becomes old, it isn't when I am listening to the music that I jones for an upgrade, it is only when I am reading some thread on this forum....

Notice I said interesting PERSONAL fact. I am sure that many here feel differently....

<dons flame retardant suit>


So, now that I got that off my chest, what amp SHOULD I get to go with
the W5000's anyway?

 

[itsborken]

Quote:

Originally Posted by greggf /img/forum/go_quote.gif There sure has been a lot, since then, that sounds slightly better or is more expensive. But mainly it has just sounded different.

Now, now, that kind of thinking would have kept us locked into sound quality from the 60-70s. If we don't purchase, there's no driving force to make the next leap forward. We will be wondering 40 years in the future why everything is still using 2000ish circuitry.

Think of where we are with CD/DVD-A/SACD, DACs, etc. We could be spinning vinyl still (sorry, I miss it), but on the other hand, I have less problems with my dogs getting at the CDs vs LPs. Storage is certainly easier to cope with and I sure like carrying my entire library in a iPod.

 

[vcoheda]

buy what you can afford. if it sounds good, it has good value.

 

[Drag0n]

Guy#1 "That tube amp is a great value for only $1000! It sounds smooth and lush and chocolately ,euphoric,thick,wide,and isnt fatigueing at all, beautifully syrupy peaceful sound,relaxing,awesome!!!"

Guy#2 about the same amp "OMG! I cant freeking believe i spent $1000 on that boat anchor of an amp! The darn thing was veiled and bassy and bloated, had no extended highs and detail, was way too boring and laid back, muffled,slow, and just wasnt exciting and had no sparkle at all,just like other bloated tubey amps!!!"

 

[Mindless]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drag0n /img/forum/go_quote.gif Guy#1 "That tube amp is a great value for only $1000! It sounds smooth and lush and chocolately ,euphoric,thick,wide,and isnt fatigueing at all, beautifully syrupy peaceful sound,relaxing,awesome!!!" Guy#2 about the same amp "OMG! I cant freeking believe i spent $1000 on that boat anchor of an amp! The darn thing was veiled and bassy and bloated, had no extended highs and detail, was way too boring and laid back, muffled,slow, and just wasnt exciting and had no sparkle at all,just like other bloated tubey amps!!!"

For a moment there I thought you were talking about some sort of cuisine.

 

[tbonner1]

Here is one idea:

I always search for the most simple connection path for a given job. I would prefer a headphone that uses no amp that can give me the sound I want right from the DAC's unbuffered output. By using a headphone that requires no (additional) headphone amp you have inherent value, a direct connect and less system clutter.