LCD3 Measurements

[purrin]

Quote:

 
Yeah, that's the kind of backwards I meant.  Backwards from the "squishy pads cause the 'veil' " hypothesis.

Oh. LOL! Understood.
 

 

[Argo Duck]

It does seem that way. Great work.
 
Quote:

Another hypothesis: the more ortho drivers see air resistance (in the form of damping materials), the lessor their bass and greater their their treble. Maybe squishing down the pads creates a tighter pocket which is is the equivalent of adding a single-ply layer of TP?
 
This measurement (along with KingStyles subjective impressions of squishing the pads down), although far from conclusive, would seem to point in the direction that perhaps the pads are not the cause of the veil.

 

 

[rhythmdevils]

Interesting results!  And strange...
 
Generally speaking, the pads that give you the most bass, least treble are the ones with the smallest cavity.  Supra-aurals give you moar bass/less treble than circumaurals.  Longer pads give you more treble and you can maintain bass if the opening is rather narrow (long, skinny shape) which is what jMoney did with his Beyer pads.  But there's other factors and oddities, like the O2 pads, which are known to be one of the bassiest pads out there but are rather large.  I believe their secret is the thick edge in the back which makes the cavity smaller.  Not sure though...

 

[KingStyles]

Maybe it takes a little space for the bass to expand which when the pads are squished it doesnt allow for that. That would intern make the treble more prominate and of course your ear being closer to the driver.

 

[rhythmdevils]

Quote:

Maybe it takes a little space for the bass to expand which when the pads are squished it doesnt allow for that. That would intern make the treble more prominate and of course your ear being closer to the driver.

 
I don't think this is correct 

 

[arnaud]

Amazing how this goes against my expectations on the physics side. Rythmdevil: you noticed this behaviour with any headphone type? Eg, open and closed?

For sealed pads, I expect the smaller ones leading to reduced bass for a sealed baffle plate like the lcds. Reason is that the driver response at LF, is likely influenced by the sealed chamber formed between the ear and diaphragm. This sealed cavity acts like a spring which prevents the diaphragm from moving freely at low frequencies. As such, the smaller the cavity, the stiffer it becomes and conequently, the less bass. LF rolloff might start from a higher frequency then. I think it should
 be particularly true for the lcds and stax cans.

For non sealed pads, it gets more complicated I think, especially if the headphone is open back like te lcd.

 

[grokit]

I've been thinking that the density, or firmness, of the pad would have as much of an influence on the sound as the fluffiness, or compactness, of it. Even though the two are related they're not quite the same.

 

[purrin]

Could be. Maybe the squished pads are effectively firmer, thus providing less absorption than the fluffed pads.

 

[DarknightDK]

Given the inconclusive evidence with the measurements of the squished pads, I guess we're back to the drawing board with the veil issue?

 

[Anaxilus]

I definitely understand the driver spring versus piston of air argument but rather than generalities I thinks it's best to discuss air volume relative to driver area and excursion otherwise its seems an exercise in fuzzy logic.
 
I can understand and have experienced some of what RD has mentioned.  For example, the M50 w/ stock pads has much better bass response than using Shure 840 pads which have more diffuse volume.  So it may not be a simple matter of simple air volume but 'focused' air volume perhaps if the driver has some sort of point of terminal bass response.  I may very well be talking out my ass.
 

 

[temporaryname]

I, for one, am glad that it's not the pads causing the veil. I know different pads affect sound differently, but if the difference was so dramatic as to make $2000 'state of the art' sound like crap that audiophiles couldn't bear to listen to.... I shudder to think of other little details that could create such jarring variances.
 
All round comforting news that points to it being a driver issue.
 
Oh, and Purrin (and you too Tyll), I commend you for your work. Such contributions to the community are admirable and I'm thankful people like you are around to keep manufacturers honest. Thank you.

 

[purrin]

Got my replacement pair in. I think someone asked about the supplied graph. Audeze did a quick driver swap on mine. The roll-off begins at 1.4kHz. With some of the other graphs, I've seen it start at 800Hz. This one has more treble too. It's more than FR. Something sounds really different about these. They seem to breath and flow better.

 
Too lazy to take my own measurements tonight. Some observations / rambling thoughts.
 
Audeze sent me my "fixed" LCD-3s almost immediately after receiving my "veiled" pair. I think the super fast turnaround is awesome. It's probable that they've already handled a few returns on similarily "veiled" LCD3s, so they were ready for it. And also because they've fixed the issue - whatever it was. I don't expect Audeze to be totally forthcoming on detailed reasons for the veil because that is their prerogative. I'm betting they've gotten more than a few returns knowing that most owners are lurkers on HF.

The LCD3s came back with the same see-through foam (in front of the driver) and the same very squishy pads. What this tells us is that the problem was not a pad or foam issue as speculated on HF. It must have been a driver issue - and could very well be possibly related to the driver failure's they've had. (EDIT: they did a driver swap.)

As far as tonal balance (I haven't measured them yet) they don't sound too different from my veiled pair other than they have a slight midrange shout very similar in nature to that of the HP1000's. It's that not bad at all and I doubt most people will be able to hear it. I'm betting these measure overall more similarly to the LCD3r1 than a r2 on a FR graph. Getting back to this midrange shout - it's not too different from the 2nd pair that I measured earlier:  http://www.head-fi.org/t/580283/lcd3-measurements/150#post_8149681 and  http://www.head-fi.org/t/580283/lcd3-measurements/150#post_8149711. I hope the ringing doesn't measure too badly. I could hear it on Adele's 21, but not Tracy Chapman's first CD. Even if I can't hear it, I just like to know it measures well. Haha!

The LCD3.2 (for lack of better way of putting it) sounds very much like the mid-centric headphone that the r1 was, but with greater clarity, speed, and detail retrieval. It does the "plankton" and ambience thing just as good as the HD800. I would almost even dare say it has the speed and clarity of the 007, but without the mid-bass mud (of the O2mk2), and with the trademark Audeze low-bass with zero distortion (a head to head comparison would be in order to confirm.) I can now totally see why people at CanJam were comparing these to the STAX O2s - and why JPnums and Jude liked them so much.

As far the the bass getting in the way, the LCD3.2 no longer has the "subwoofer + AM radio" sound - that analogy I made in the past. These do NOT require any TP mod. Now I think any LCD3 that requires a TP mod is defective and should be sent back to Audeze for inspection. The new pair appear to have much more air - high treble. I need to confirm this via comparison to my other headphones.

FYI - I just woke up from a nap. I fell asleep while listening to them. Something I do with my HD800s all the time because I don't wan't to take them off. This is a good sign. Headphones don't last long on my head unless I like them. The D7000 lasted 30 seconds. The ED8 lasted 10.

 

[dj nellie]

Nice impressions purrin, thanks.  How do you know they swapped your drivers?  I sent my LCD-3s back and they came back with the same serial, but appeared to be a different unit because of the transparent driver covers and squishier earpads.  I guess we'll never know exactly what was changed with the newer units?
 
Like your graph, the graph on my new pair also shows the upper mid/treble rolloff occurring later, almost at 2k for me.  But as you point out, the improvement in my replacement pair seems to be the result of more than just a bump in certain frequency ranges; in my unit, there seems to be a subtle but significant improvement in overall clarity and speed.  If my old pair was slightly sluggish, my new pair feels more sprightly and snappy.  I'd still like to get an HD800 just to have a more comfortable headphone with a more holographic soundstage, but (1) I'm concerned about reports that I may need to mod them to get them to sound their best, and (2) the improved comfort and overall technical ability of my new pair has me wondering whether my money would be better spent improving my source or amp.  Any thoughts on the choice, considering you own both headphones?

 

[purrin]

Quote:

Nice impressions purrin, thanks.  How do you know they swapped your drivers?  I sent my LCD-3s back and they came back with the same serial, but appeared to be a different unit because of the transparent driver covers and squishier earpads.  I guess we'll never know exactly what was changed with the newer units?
 
Like your graph, the graph on my new pair also shows the upper mid/treble rolloff occurring later, almost at 2k for me.  But as you point out, the improvement in my replacement pair seems to be the result of more than just a bump in certain frequency ranges; in my unit, there seems to be a subtle but significant improvement in overall clarity and speed.  If my old pair was slightly sluggish, my new pair feels more sprightly and snappy.  I'd still like to get an HD800 just to have a more comfortable headphone with a more holographic soundstage, but (1) I'm concerned about reports that I may need to mod them to get them to sound their best, and (2) the improved comfort and overall technical ability of my new pair has me wondering whether my money would be better spent improving my source or amp.  Any thoughts on the choice, considering you own both headphones?

You could be right. Maybe Audeze just swapped the s/n sticker.
 
Looking at your gear, I would get a better amp first. I should have some measurements of higher s/n HD800s. You can take your time to decide. A few HF's have claimed they are more tolerable in the treble.
 
How many people have returned their veiled LCD3s now? I seems like a lot more than I thought.
 

 

[purrin]

Just wanted to add: These LCD3s I just got in are REALLY AWESOME. It's like going from Alex Smith (old TP modded pair) to Peyton Manning.