Dec 24, 2008 at 1:59 AM Post #31 of 305
Quote:

Originally Posted by soundlogic /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Last week, I found myself listening to more headphone equipment than one could shake a stick at with fellow Head-Fier: TheSatelliteGuy. Check his profile and you'll see what I mean. Anyway, I brought my new AKG 702's over to listen to his many amps...portable and desktop. He just so happened to have a well broken in pair of 701's. My 702's had just attained 500 hrs. of break-in before bringing them over. Besides the obvious color difference, and cable connection difference, the 702's cable has a slightly thicker appearance as well. We plugged both sets of cans into a Maxxed Headroom desktop amp with dac. Source was a Marantz 9600. Since there is two inputs on the Headroom amp, we were able to plug both sets in and listen back and fourth between them. The difference was not subtle. The 702's were more coherent across the board with more bass and a less strident top-end. When I compared his Senn's HD 650 with Cardas upgrade cable...the 702's now seemed bass-shy in comparison, but at the same time the 650's were veiled and less detailed compared to the 702's.
Overall, I preferred the 702's...and I will probably buy a pair of Sens 650's and maybe some Zu after-market cables to bring out the highs a little more.



I want to make sure I understand what you wrote. Are you "saying" that when using a stock cable on both the K 701 and the 702, there is a difference in the sound when comparing one to the other?
If that's what you are saying, it contradicts every piece of information I've heard regarding this topic.
 
Dec 24, 2008 at 2:22 AM Post #32 of 305
Peter;
Have you seen the difference in cables between the 701 and 702? The 702 has a ever-so-slightly different/larger diameter and is attached with a mini XLR. This could account for what we heard? Not sure. I choose to use my own ears to formulate an opinion, instead of formulating an opinion based on other people's writings/experiences.
Gary..."thesatilliteguy"...heard the same thing.
Attribute it to what you may, we heard what we heard and it is OUR opinion.
Most everything written here is opinions.
 
Dec 24, 2008 at 3:00 AM Post #33 of 305
Quote:

Originally Posted by LnxPrgr3 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
A related question -- what headphone is flat enough to use for mastering, while having to compensate for nothing?


These graphs all seem to show flaws that would require some compensation. The K701 has a hump between 6kHz and 10kHz. The Senns have deep cuts near 6kHz and 18kHz. Both have a hump in the mid bass/low mids. The Denons are relatively weak around 2kHz, and the D5000 appears to tilt strongly toward the bass. I've not heard all of these, but from reviews I've read on here, it seems some people perceive these characteristics.

I do realize headphones shouldn't measure flat, but do any of these deviations mirror what the air between you and "flat" monitor speakers would cause? Even if these headphones sound wonderful to a lot of people, couldn't these deviations affect your judgement on a project if you're not careful?



Yes, good question...I've been thinking along these same lines lately. At the moment I'm using the RP-21's because they sound much more natural than my mdr-v6's which are obviously very bright, and my k240's which have that big bump in the upper bass frequencies. I wonder if anyone has done any comparisons of various 'studio' headphones with good studio monitors.
 
Dec 24, 2008 at 3:01 AM Post #34 of 305
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Murphy /img/forum/go_quote.gif
You are spot on. He said he hates headphone listening because he doesn't like hearing tape dropouts and tracks being punched in and out. But I guess you can't blame him not wanting to listen to head phones if he has a pro mastering facility with great speakers at his fingertips all day.

My response to the OP was what I had read from Jamie Tate who does spend his time behind a mixing board, and he has been quite vocal about the K701s not being correct-sounding for mixing the way he hears it. Even among pros it all seems to be subjective just like among us consumers.
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You really need a headphones that has a FR. The 701s are audiophile grade, but never seen them as a tool for accurate mixing.
 
Dec 24, 2008 at 3:10 AM Post #35 of 305
Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Pinna /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Excuse me?!! I have experience with the AKG K701 and probably much more than you. And in regards to the AKG K 702, I can assure you that I have been informed by a number of extremely reliable sources that the K702 sounds exactly like the 701. Either way, my comment was made about the K701. I clearly stated, (even though my information is from reliable sources) that I assumed the opinion would also apply to the 702. The assumption was because I had no first hand experience with the 702. I made that very clear in my post and for you to point out that my information about the 702 is from other sources is not only redundant, it's idiotic!

Let's get a few things "straight". First of all, the Pro 750 was designed originally for studio production. While the K 701 is an excellent sounding headphone, all things considered, the Pro 750's overall sound is much closer to the sound of "flat" studio monitor speakers in an acoustically controlled room as compared to the K 701. For one thing, you can "talk about" graphs until "the cows come home" and it won't change my opinion and the opinion of several others with whom I've communicated about this particular subject that the K 701 has a somewhat weak sounding bass. (Actually, you are the only person with whom I've ever communicated about this particular topic who didn't have the opinion that the K 701 has a somewhat weak sounding bass.) The bass of the Pro 750, as only one frequency comparison, is much more accurate sounding (when compared to "flat" studio monitor speakers in an acoustically controlled room), IMO, when compared with the K701.

It is not my intention to belittle anyone including you, Acix. However, you referred to me as "funny". I'll tell you what's "funny"! What's "funny" are some of the uninformed comments you've made in posts here on Head-Fi, IMO. I wrote "uninformed" because, in most but not all of those posts, it is blatantly obvious that you do not have a complete understanding of not only the topic of the threads but also, to some degree, the very subjects of your own comments IMO.

I strongly suggest to you that you continue your education and advance much more in your apprenticeship before making any more comments and evaluations that are obviously, IMO, way beyond your actual knowledge and practical experience of these particular subjects.



Cute, acix is making new friends.. Don't worry, he spread the same FUD regarding the dt48s.. Trying to to discredit them as none studio worthy cause it had the DT infront of it. Digital telephone iI believe.. I guess he doesn't know that ALL Beyer headphones have DT before the model number.. If he's this in accurate with his mixing he will be looking for a new line of work.
 
Dec 24, 2008 at 5:52 AM Post #36 of 305
Quote:

Originally Posted by kool bubba ice /img/forum/go_quote.gif
You really need a headphones that has a FR. The 701s are audiophile grade, but never seen them as a tool for accurate mixing.


LOL...Did you try to mix on your K701??
 
Dec 24, 2008 at 8:07 AM Post #37 of 305
Quote:

Originally Posted by LnxPrgr3 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
A related question -- what headphone is flat enough to use for mastering, while having to compensate for nothing?
Here's graphs for some headphones I've seen touted as "reference class:"

graphCompare.php
graphCompare.php


These graphs all seem to show flaws that would require some compensation. The K701 has a hump between 6kHz and 10kHz. The Senns have deep cuts near 6kHz and 18kHz. Both have a hump in the mid bass/low mids. The Denons are relatively weak around 2kHz, and the D5000 appears to tilt strongly toward the bass. I've not heard all of these, but from reviews I've read on here, it seems some people perceive these characteristics.

I do realize headphones shouldn't measure flat, but do any of these deviations mirror what the air between you and "flat" monitor speakers would cause? Even if these headphones sound wonderful to a lot of people, couldn't these deviations affect your judgement on a project if you're not careful?



There is a difference between headphones that are EQ'd "flat" and headphones that sound as though they are EQ'd "flat" (when those headphones are compared to "flat" studio monitor speakers in an acoustically controlled room).
Actually, it is my understanding that a "flat" EQ'd headphone has never been released widely, not even to sound professionals. The reason for this is because when a headphone is "flat" for a number of reasons, that "flat" headphone doesn't sound "flat" to our ears. In other words, for headphones, it takes an EQ setting other than "flat" to sound "flat" to us. To a minor degree the sound of "flat" might vary with the individual, but speaking in generalities, the reasons for this have to do with the way we hear, the proximity of the drivers to our ears and other related sonic factors.
 
Dec 24, 2008 at 8:33 AM Post #38 of 305
Quote:

Originally Posted by kool bubba ice /img/forum/go_quote.gif
You really need a headphones that has a FR. The 701s are audiophile grade, but never seen them as a tool for accurate mixing.


Of the few times I've experienced someone using headphones for mixing, the AKG K 701 was involved a couple of times. The same engineer did both of the mixes when the K701 was utilized. The key word for me in your post is "accurate" (mixing). Mixing can be done on the K 701 as long as the person mixing is extremely familiar with the sound of the K 701 and is able to mentally compensate for what sounds like frequency alterations (such as a somewhat weak bass, as one example). It becomes necessary for one to imagine (continuing to use the example of the lower frequency) what the bass would actually sound like when played via "flat" studio monitor speakers in an acoustically controlled room. In other words, when listening to a mix through the K 701, if the bass sounds like it's EQ'd "right", when listening later to that same mix via "flat" studio monitor speakers in an acoustically controlled room, the bass will sound somewhat exaggerated in it's frequency depth and quite possibly it's comparative dynamics, IMO.
Such a mental compensation (as previously described) is unnecessary with the Pro 750, IMO.
 
Dec 24, 2008 at 9:17 AM Post #39 of 305
Didn't AKG tell that the K701 and K702 are the same except for the color and some other minor changes. Chances is bigger that one of the K701/K702 you tested is just a little bit different like every headphone, but the K701 and K702 should sound the same, as far as I know. Furthermore this is an interesting thread but lets keep it friendly and respectful people, its not about changing each-others mind because we both know thats not gonna happen, but lets keep the information flowing
smily_headphones1.gif
cheers~!
 
Dec 24, 2008 at 5:01 PM Post #40 of 305
Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Pinna /img/forum/go_quote.gif
There is a difference between headphones that are EQ'd "flat" and headphones that sound as though they are EQ'd "flat" (when those headphones are compared to "flat" studio monitor speakers in an acoustically controlled room).
Actually, it is my understanding that a "flat" EQ'd headphone has never been released widely, not even to sound professionals. The reason for this is because when a headphone is "flat" for a number of reasons, that "flat" headphone doesn't sound "flat" to our ears. In other words, for headphones, it takes an EQ setting other than "flat" to sound "flat" to us. To a minor degree the sound of "flat" might vary with the individual, but speaking in generalities, the reasons for this have to do with the way we hear, the proximity of the drivers to our ears and other related sonic factors.



If what you say is correct I would have to conclude that since we can't rely upon a frequency response graph, then the only way to judge the 'flatness' or neutrality of a particular set of headphones is to compare them ourselves to 'flat' studio monitor speakers in a treated room. Since most of us can't audition headphones like that then how are we to make an informed selection...assuming someone such as myself is looking for a set of 'studio reference' headphones. If I can't rely upon the frequency graphs then I would have to rely upon what you or someone else tells me...or a review from SOS or Recording mag....or some so-called 'expert' who has good monitor speakers. One of the reviewers in Sound on Sound mag. described the DT250's as being good studio reference headphones with a 'neutral' frequency response. I wonder how many of the folks here would agree with that assessment...or not.
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Dec 24, 2008 at 5:28 PM Post #41 of 305
I think everyone who has read up on the human ear, hearing, and perception of sound would agree with LnxPgr3's statements. A flat line of frequency response for a headphone would give you an awefull sound. You should just test yourself in hearing a 1000hz tone and a 400hz tone, you will find out that their volumes are perceived different by your ears, while a db meter will tell you they are exact the same.
 
Dec 24, 2008 at 9:19 PM Post #42 of 305
Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Pinna /img/forum/go_quote.gif
There is a difference between headphones that are EQ'd "flat" and headphones that sound as though they are EQ'd "flat" (when those headphones are compared to "flat" studio monitor speakers in an acoustically controlled room).


Quote:

Originally Posted by LnxPrgr3 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I do realize headphones shouldn't measure flat, but do any of these deviations mirror what the air between you and "flat" monitor speakers would cause?


I know some deviations are necessary to sound anything like speakers placed some distance in front of you. For example, my limited experience tells me a ruler-flat response would sound painful and thin coming from headphones. Flat speakers measured a distance away don't measure flat -- the highs roll off. I definitely prefer my headphones emulate that.

But the other deviations? I guess if your brain can turn that 6-10kHz spike, or the Senn's dip at ~6kHz, into a positional cue, it might work out. HRTFs vary wildly between individuals, though, especially in the highs. One man's holographic imaging is another man's painful upper-mids/highs over-emphasis
wink.gif


Of course, given this, how can anyone give a reliable recommendation for a good studio headphone? The K702 sounds flat to acix, and the Pro 750 sounds flat to you. Neither may work out for me, or any other random person. We are all doomed forever to disagree on what is truly flat...
 
Dec 24, 2008 at 10:38 PM Post #43 of 305
Headphones cannot sound flat because flat response is expected from a transducer being in front of you at some distance, while the headphones are aside your head, directing the sound waves perpendicular to the ear, and it's obvious that the ear lobe has the equalization dependent on the angle of the oncoming sounds against the ear lobe. Add to that necessary phase shifts for higher frequencies and this is what headphones are all about.

Regarding the Pro 750's, I didn't find them flat, the Pro 2500's are more accurate IMHO and don't have that warm midrange coloration. Looking at the Headroom graphs only, the DT880's are the most flat, then the HD600's and the K701 after them, with their deep 12-14kHz recession.
 
Dec 24, 2008 at 11:23 PM Post #44 of 305
Quote:

Originally Posted by LnxPrgr3 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I know some deviations are necessary to sound anything like speakers placed some distance in front of you. For example, my limited experience tells me a ruler-flat response would sound painful and thin coming from headphones. Flat speakers measured a distance away don't measure flat -- the highs roll off. I definitely prefer my headphones emulate that.

But the other deviations? I guess if your brain can turn that 6-10kHz spike, or the Senn's dip at ~6kHz, into a positional cue, it might work out. HRTFs vary wildly between individuals, though, especially in the highs. One man's holographic imaging is another man's painful upper-mids/highs over-emphasis
wink.gif


Of course, given this, how can anyone give a reliable recommendation for a good studio headphone? The K702 sounds flat to acix, and the Pro 750 sounds flat to you. Neither may work out for me, or any other random person. We are all doomed forever to disagree on what is truly flat...



This certainly is a "loaded" subject, isn't it? In one of my posts, I used the phrase "speaking in generalities". By using this phrase I was referring to the idea that there certainly are deviations in the way that sounds are perceived differently to some degree by different individuals and when trying to determine what you might call the overall average way that humans hear we are "speaking in generalities".
One example of this might be your point (if the following is true) that Acix perceives the K701 as sounding "flat" (when compared to "flat" studio monitor speakers in an acoustically controlled room) and I don't. And, I perceive the Pro 750 as sounding the most similar of any headphone I've ever heard to the sound produced by "flat" studio monitor speakers in an acoustically controlled room and supposedly, Acix doesn't. (Please take note of the way that I describe my perception of the sound of the Pro 750)

The question now becomes has Acix ever compared thoroughly the sound of the K 701's to "flat" studio monitor speakers in an acoustically controlled room? And, if so, does he really think the K 701 sounds "flat"? If he does, Acix would certainly be the first person with whom I've ever communicated who would think the sound of the K 701 sounds "flat". Here, let me point out, that I'm not saying what Acix's actual opinion would be. I'm only asking a question where he is concerned.

You also brought up the idea of how the sound that we perceive might be affected by the space (I think you used the word "air") between our ears and speakers. And, how that space would affect the way that we perceive the sound coming from those speakers. There is no doubt that this factor does affect our perception. However, this factor is much less significant when one is in an acoustically controlled room. Sometimes, over the years, I have heard the acoustics in an acoustically controlled room described as "dead". The reason for this is because sound does not reverberate or echo nearly as much as it would in a room that is not acoustically controlled. I do not know the percentages of differences of reverberation or echo. Suffice it to "say" that it is quite a bit different. And, the smaller the acoustically controlled room the easier it is to hear the "deadness" of the sound. A very good example of this would be a solidly built isolation booth usually used for vocalists and drummers in a recording studio. If a vocalist has never been in one before, it is almost funny to watch their reaction when they hear the sound of their voice when singing in one. At home, they hear themselves singing and their voice would reverberate off the tile in the bathroom or off the ceiling and walls in the living room. In the isolation booth, most of that reverberation is gone and in frustration a typical response by a vocalist in this situation is something to the effect of 'That's weird? Why can't I hear my voice the same way I do at home?' and 'My voice just doesn't go out in here'.
When listening to studio monitor speakers in an acoustically controlled room, the "normal" room reverberation that one would hear in a living room (for example) is, probably for the most part, missing. One is left to hear almost only the reverberation and/or echo that is in the recording itself. This would be somewhat similar to listening to "closed" and "sealed" (varies with the headphone) headphones because when one is "in" a pair of "closed" and "sealed" headphones, the acoustics are somewhat "dead" (varying degrees of this vary with the particular headphone). And, consequently, for the most part, similar to being in an acoustically controlled room, when listening to these types of headphones, the reverberation and / or echo that one hears is coming, almost exclusively (if not completely) from the recording and not from any additional "room acoustics".

I hope that made sense to you.

Regarding your question of the reliability of the so called "experts", I find myself only able to answer this question with my own arbitrary experiences. At times I have agreed with the "experts" in their reviews and other times I have not. IMO, one has to judge for themselves. I forget which Head-Fi member has the following in their signature area but I have found it to be true:

"If it sounds good to you, it is good."
 
Dec 25, 2008 at 12:34 AM Post #45 of 305
Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Pinna /img/forum/go_quote.gif

"If it sounds good to you, it is good."



Of course. When listening for pleasure I will often choose the k240's because they sound 'good' to me...just like I will eat food that tastes good to me, not to you. But when we are talking about mixing we have to use a different standard, no? If we are hoping to have our music heard by someone in the music 'industry' we want it to sound good on studio monitor speakers...and what sounds good to me mixed my k240's will likely sound very deficient in the upper bass when listened to on 'flat' monitor speakers. And what sounds good mixed on my mdr-v6's may sound lacking in the upper mids/treble on 'flat' speakers or headphones. So, who should I believe about which headphones have the most accurate/neutral sound? And if, as one person wrote, we can't trust the frequency graphs to tell us what sounds flat, how do we even know if the studio monitors are flat? Without the plot of the frequency response we have no frame of reference at all to decide what is flat!
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