[gepardcv]

I have tried avoiding CIEMs, but fit and comfort troubles with ER4S and W40 have been pushing me away from universals. I have narrowed my options down to the JH13 and the UERM.

I read the massive InnerFidelity CIEM article and did some searching here on Head-Fi, and still have a hard time figuring out the sound signature consensus on the UERM. Is it truly neutral, or irritatingly cold?

As far as existing headphones go, I find the ER4S a little too thin in the bass, the W40 a little too lush throughout the spectrum (but otherwise good), and the HD600, HD800, HE-6, and SR-009 all excellent (for different reasons). Not a fan of Audeze — way too dark and lacking in details.

To complicate the issue a little bit, I'm going to the Bay Area meet tomorrow, and UE will have a 20% discount along with free impressions. So the UERM looks like it'll only cost me around $800, compared to over $1200 for the JH (factoring in audiologist costs); also JH seems to have a much longer wait time.

So I'm wondering if anyone has experience with both can give me a hint as to the right direction here. I care more about getting a sound I like than about the price difference, but don't want to overpay for an overly-subtle improvement, either.

 

[abbztract]

By the sounds of it, you want the UERM. Not as thin on bass as the ER4S while not being as warm or exaggeratedly bassy as the JH13. The JH13 to me was quite a letdown and especially so in comparison to the ER4S. UERM is definitely the way you want to go. 

 

[goodvibes]

Sounds like you may be able to hear both universals tomorrow and I would go with what sounds better to you on audition with the same source. Neither is as warm or cold as your current phones. jh13 has more low bass without warming the mids. It comes down to whether you feel that represents a more accurate representation of live listening where bass mixes across channels or not. I happen to like it but it's personal.

 

[tomscy2000]

The JH13 sounds more like the HD600; the UERM sounds more like the HD800 --- that's about as good of an IEM-to-can comparison I can make.
 
The JH13 can top the UERM in terms of technical performance in imaging. However, it's a more aggressive, in-your-face sound than the more open-ended feel of the UERM. I like the UERM and prefer it to the JH13. However, I can imagine another person choosing things the other way around.
 
The JH13 is indeed warmer than the UERM, but the UERM is not "irritatingly cold". To me, it feels no more cold and analytical than the HD800. If you don't find the HE-6, SR-009, and HD800 too bright, then you won't find the UERM too bright.
 
When you demo the UERM, make sure you get a nice, snug, deep fit, as is the case with any custom demo.

 

[gepardcv]

Thanks for all the notes!
 
I just returned from the meet. Tried the UERM, UE11, and UE18 demo units, in that order. The UERM struck me as pretty decent at first, and I was just about to place my order, but decided to try the other models first. The UE11 was an instant "no" — too boomy. The UE18, on the other hand, sounded really nice. I unexpectedly preferred it to the UERM. The RM sounded a bit thin in comparison, while the 18 filled out the sound nicely without becoming overly lush or rich. So I decided to hold off ordering anything. The discount would have been good, but now I really do need to hear a JH13 demo unit before making a decision.

 

[shotgunshane]

The JH13 will have a good bit more bass than the UERM, in both mid and sub bass (the demo UERM sounds thinner, or perhaps colder, than the full custom in my experience). In fact, the full custom JH13 has surprisingly larger quantity over its demo; I was quite surprised at the difference.  It also has more aggressive treble, with a couple of peaks around 5 and 9k or so depending on ear resonances.  The  full custom JH13 will give you a surround sound kind of staging.  It can be a little overwhelming until you get used to it and, IMO, is definitely tuned to 'rock out'.  It has the best imaging of any IEM i've heard, period- nothing comes close... yet.  However the JH13 is about as far from a neutral sig as you can get, while still being able to call it neutralish.  I'd have to imagine it's FR is better than the UE18, if linearity or neutrality is important to you, because it has a fairly large valley in the upper mid/lower treble, plus a big bass boost, from what I've seen in measurements (I've not heard the UE18).
 
Having owned both the JH13 and UERM, I prefer the UERM due to it's better neutral signature, better layering, better detailed midrange and fantastically accurate mid bass (mid bass the ER4S can only dream of attaining).  However, if it wasn't for the JH13 treble peaks, I'd still own it and in many ways I miss it greatly (I sold it).  I'm hoping the Cosmic Ears CE6 P variant can give a JH13 type of sig with smoother treble, as it should have phase coherence that rivals the JH13 (thus having similar imaging capability) but the jury is still out on what kind of FR it will have and as far as I know is not officially released.
 
Anyway, good luck on your hunt.

 

[SilverEars]

  The JH13 will have a good bit more bass than the UERM, in both mid and sub bass (the demo UERM sounds thinner, or perhaps colder, than the full custom in my experience). In fact, the full custom JH13 has surprisingly larger quantity over its demo; I was quite surprised at the difference.  It also has more aggressive treble, with a couple of peaks around 5 and 9k or so depending on ear resonances.  The  full custom JH13 will give you a surround sound kind of staging.  It can be a little overwhelming until you get used to it and, IMO, is definitely tuned to 'rock out'.  It has the best imaging of any IEM i've heard, period- nothing comes close... yet.  However the JH13 is about as far from a neutral sig as you can get, while still being able to call it neutralish.  I'd have to imagine it's FR is better than the UE18, if linearity or neutrality is important to you, because it has a fairly large valley in the upper mid/lower treble, plus a big bass boost, from what I've seen in measurements (I've not heard the UE18).
 
Having owned both the JH13 and UERM, I prefer the UERM due to it's better neutral signature, better layering, better detailed midrange and fantastically accurate mid bass (mid bass the ER4S can only dream of attaining).  However, if it wasn't for the JH13 treble peaks, I'd still own it and in many ways I miss it greatly (I sold it).  I'm hoping the Cosmic Ears CE6 P variant can give a JH13 type of sig with smoother treble, as it should have phase coherence that rivals the JH13 (thus having similar imaging capability) but the jury is still out on what kind of FR it will have and as far as I know is not officially released.
 
Anyway, good luck on your hunt.

I was always intrigued with this, and was curious how that is achieved.  I do notice some sort of imaging or depth you would say with my NT6, but not my 1964 V3.  I have been suspecting atleast 3 cross overs with 2 or more bores to cause imaging(the multiple bore theory doesn't pan out exactly as the 334 has 3 bores, but it's flat imaging).  I've also heard somebody say a mid frequency boost would widen the stage, not sure how this works.  Just for the stage alone, the 13 intrigues me, but I wouldn't be able to demo a custom to find out how the imaging is like unfortunately.  The treble on the JH products do not come out favorable to some.  
 
CK10, a single driver sounds flat when I take off my NT6 and put it on.  I can't think of a universal with imaging like some of the customs.

 

[shotgunshane]

   
CK10, a single driver sounds flat when I take off my NT6 and put it on.  I can't think of a universal with imaging like some of the customs.

 
The TG334 and 1+2 universals have very good imaging IMO.  The 1+2, while grandiose wide, sounds a little 2D though compared to deeper sounding IEMS, and while the TG334 isn't anywhere near as wide, it's depth was 'being John Malkovich' excellently introspective.

 

[gepardcv]

Anyway, good luck on your hunt.

Thanks. I found a dealer/audiologist who stocks both UE and JH, and will try to head there soon.
 
Very interesting point about the demos sounding different from the full customs. Guess there really is no way to know how the final product turns out.

 

[goodvibes]

Funny, because I find the treble on the JH13fp pretty smooth, almost too much so with aftermarket pure copper cables but it took a while for it to settle in. Stock cable is a little gritty. Could be that my ear shape is complimentary or that mine are a shallow fit as well. I currently use a hybrid cable with mine. The treble is less 'hot' sounding than the pre FP version to my ear. Agree they have some extra low bass but if not only used at home it's not a bad thing. I think when you get to IEMs of this quality it's hard to go wrong and cables are always there for a bit of extra voicing after the fact. I went with the 13 because of it's solidity and timimg which have always been valued by me. They change a lot tonally by source but always have a touch extra low bass.
 In any case, let us know what you decide and good luck.

 

[gepardcv]

Went to an audiologist today who sells both UE and JH, and listened to the UERM, UE18, JH13, and Roxanne.
 
1. Something may have been wrong with the UERM I heard at the meet on Saturday. The unit I heard today sounded way better.
 
2. On the whole, the JH13 and UERM demos sounded more similar than different. On mid and treble-centric chamber music, I didn't hear much difference at all. However, I preferred the JH13 on several tracks where it brought out extra depth and texture. This gave it enough of an edge that I ended up ordering the JH13.
 
3. I didn't enjoy the UE18 as much this time around, probably because I was comparing it to a sound signature I actually prefer (non-weird UERM and JH13). The 18 sounds too boomy compared to the smooth UERM and JH13.
 
4. The Roxanne was not for me. I don't like fiddling with adjustable sound, nothing about it felt very special in any case.
 
All-in-all, doing this comparison with universal eartips mostly sucked. I had seal troubles several times. I still don't quite know what I'll get when the JH13 shows up — in about two months.

 

[shotgunshane]

Awesome that you got to try them all back to back.

I think you can expect a bit more bass on the jh13 than what you heard- I had the same issue, trying to keep a seal, with the jh13 demo I heard at a meet. At the meet it was pretty neutral bass but the real thing was pretty visceral. But that ended up being a pleasant surprise. I really enjoyed the full custom jh13 bass.

Hope they turn out great for you!

 

[goodvibes]

Well said. I never regret my JH13fp purchase and I'm sure UERM owners feel the same. The new totl devices may do some things better but I seem to enjoy mine just as much and never felt the need to change after a listen. I'm also not a ue18 or jh16 kind of guy. Make sure to not get too caught up in the tonality until you have a 100 hrs or more on them.

 

[Xymordos]

It's definitely based on preference. I preferred the UERM demo to the JH13 demo. I thought the JH13 bass was too boomy. JH16 demo was just nasty to my ears

 

[rawrster]

Both are very good ciem and preference is definitely key here. The jh13 is a bit ahead in performance but I do like the uerm better. The difference is lost in my commute however.

As far as demos I felt the uerm demo was much closer to the ciem than when I tried the jh13 demo.